[Streety McCarface]

As for parking, similarly as has been discussed to death, parking is the means by which the majority of GO commuters access trains. It's all well and good that you think it shouldn't be a consideration, but GO has to deal with reality, and the reality is that people like to park at GO stations. We can either build parking and get cars off the road, or we can not build parking and those cars can drive all the way to downtown Toronto and clog up streets there even worse. I don't understand why so many people hold this mistaken belief that if you stop building GO parking people will just walk, cycle, or take local transit to their stations--no, they'll just drive downtown. I think the choice is clear, and GO does too.

The big issue I find with people not taking transit, especially in the morning, is the fact that bus service is atrocious. Here in Waterloo, I cannot catch the first 2 trains in the morning to Toronto (including the express train), and of the 2 I can catch, the bus arrives near the station 2 minutes before the train is scheduled to leave. One time in November I had to catch the train to Pearson and arrived at the station 2 minutes before the train had to leave. My PRESTO card had not been tapped off earlier accidentally so my card was locked. Luckily, I managed to pay the fine with CS, tap my card, and catch the train within 1 minute before the train left (I made it with the doors literally closing on my luggage). In essence, the third train is inaccessible to commuters as well. The only real option is the car for a lot of people. Instead of focussing resources on building parking and maintaining, I would invest in bus routes that serve stations earlier with better transfer times so that it is a viable option.

 

[Megaton327]

The big issue I find with people not taking transit, especially in the morning, is the fact that bus service is atrocious. Here in Waterloo, I cannot catch the first 2 trains in the morning to Toronto (including the express train), and of the 2 I can catch, the bus arrives near the station 2 minutes before the train is scheduled to leave. One time in November I had to catch the train to Pearson and arrived at the station 2 minutes before the train had to leave. My PRESTO card had not been tapped off earlier accidentally so my card was locked. Luckily, I managed to pay the fine with CS, tap my card, and catch the train within 1 minute before the train left (I made it with the doors literally closing on my luggage). In essence, the third train is inaccessible to commuters as well. The only real option is the car for a lot of people. Instead of focussing resources on building parking and maintaining, I would invest in bus routes that serve stations earlier with better transfer times so that it is a viable option.

Oh, I absolutely agree that we need to work on other options. Indeed, Cooksville's redevelopment will include bus bays, added pedestrian paths, and a connection to the future LRT line. I believe there are supposed to be some cycling infrastructure improvements coinciding with the LRT but I'm not sure about that area in particular. But, that doesn't mean that we should stop building parking, period. While we should be trying to shift people to other first-/last-mile modes of travel, we have to recognize that parking is currently in demand and we need to try to meet that demand.

In municipalities like Waterloo and across York Region where bus access to trains is abysmal, unlike in Mississauga where there is good bus service and in Cooksville's case an upcoming LRT line, it is certainly a priority to introduce usable bus service. Here at Aurora GO, my local bus route only makes direct connections to 5 morning and 5 afternoon trains; it makes non-scheduled hope-for-the-best connections stopping on the street during the rest of the day, there is no evening or weekend service. Even when it connects to the train, it takes me about half an hour to get between my home and the GO station using that bus, and costs me $1 each way, vs driving which takes 5 minutes and costs me maybe 10 cents (I drive an EV). Coming home, the bus doesn't even come to the bus platform for about 10 minutes after the train has left, then it sits there with its doors open for another 5 minutes before leaving, and takes a suboptimal route out with a large backlog at the traffic light...takes more like 40 minutes to get home vs 30 minutes going there. Looking for parking takes an additional 5 minutes at most at the times of day when I travel in addition to the 5 minute drive time, which is not applicable when coming back home. So, $1.90 and about 55 minutes of time wasted per day that I take the bus rather than driving, and it completely locks me out of taking evening or weekend trains. No thank you.

This definitely needs to change, but improvements to other modes of travel don't mean we have to stop providing parking.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Oh, I absolutely agree that we need to work on other options. Indeed, Cooksville's redevelopment will include bus bays, added pedestrian paths, and a connection to the future LRT line. I believe there are supposed to be some cycling infrastructure improvements coinciding with the LRT but I'm not sure about that area in particular. But, that doesn't mean that we should stop building parking, period. While we should be trying to shift people to other first-/last-mile modes of travel, we have to recognize that parking is currently in demand and we need to try to meet that demand.

In municipalities like Waterloo and across York Region where bus access to trains is abysmal, unlike in Mississauga where there is good bus service and in Cooksville's case an upcoming LRT line, it is certainly a priority to introduce usable bus service. Here at Aurora GO, my local bus route only makes direct connections to 5 morning and 5 afternoon trains; it makes non-scheduled hope-for-the-best connections stopping on the street during the rest of the day, there is no evening or weekend service. Even when it connects to the train, it takes me about half an hour to get between my home and the GO station using that bus, and costs me $1 each way, vs driving which takes 5 minutes and costs me maybe 10 cents (I drive an EV). Coming home, the bus doesn't even come to the bus platform for about 10 minutes after the train has left, then it sits there with its doors open for another 5 minutes before leaving, and takes a suboptimal route out with a large backlog at the traffic light...takes more like 40 minutes to get home vs 30 minutes going there. Looking for parking takes an additional 5 minutes at most at the times of day when I travel in addition to the 5 minute drive time, which is not applicable when coming back home. So, $1.90 and about 55 minutes of time wasted per day that I take the bus rather than driving, and it completely locks me out of taking evening or weekend trains. No thank you.

This definitely needs to change, but improvements to other modes of travel don't mean we have to stop providing parking.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Waterloo Region's bus service is abysmal, but it is certainly lacking, especially in the evening, overnight, and early morning (buses usually come every 15 minutes on many trunk routes and 10 minutes on express routes in Waterloo (200, 201, 202, as well as the 9, 13). It'll certainly be better once the LRT is introuduced.

 

[mdrejhon]

Extra trains on Milton is so expensive (CP fees) that they need to build the garages first before adding even just one or two trains more a day - which is, indeed, of course, planned in the next several years.

Otherwise they can't overfill the trains to make it worth paying CP the huge fees (that eats up a lot of the fare percentage on Milton)

Hopefully Hurontario LRT (and spinoff transit improvements) helps increase transit-user percentages relative to drivers.

 

[Megaton327]

I wouldn't go as far as saying that Waterloo Region's bus service is abysmal, but it is certainly lacking, especially in the evening, overnight, and early morning (buses usually come every 15 minutes on many trunk routes and 10 minutes on express routes in Waterloo (200, 201, 202, as well as the 9, 13). It'll certainly be better once the LRT is introuduced.

To clarify, I'm not saying bus service there is abysmal, I'm saying bus access to trains, in particular, is abysmal. Maybe that's changed in recent years but I used to live downtown and take GO/Via between the city and KW occasionally, a couple of years ago; it was definitely quite bad for connecting to Via weekends, a bit better for GO weekdays but still not great. Maybe it's improved recently, but it just doesn't seem like GRT cares that much about GO train connections. The LRT will definitely help although it's still a bit of a walk to the train station from King; the big win will be when the King/Victoria transit hub centralizes this all in one place. Can't wait to see that!

 

[TransitBart]

https://blog.metrolinx.com/2018/01/04/quiz-how-much-were-you-paying-attention-in-2017/

A random link for Sunday night.

Interesting outreach.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Two questions, first once Hurontario goes in what if people were redirected to Lakeshore West? (They could even park at Cooksville and take the LRT)

Is there any way to add more cars to make a longer train? Any other way to improve current train capacity?

Is there even room at Union Station for 13, 14, 15, 16 car trains?

 

[Streety McCarface]

I don't believe so, but if necessary anything is possible. I thought the locos were limited to 12 cras but, I don't see why 13-16 would be impossible?

MP40PH-3Cs are rated for 4000 HP (2982.799 kW), MP54AC's (the newest model) are rated for 5,400 HP (4026.779 kW). With the new locomotives, they'd be able to push/pull up to 16 cars assuming that the MP40PH-3Cs are pushing their maximum. The real question, along with platform alignment, should really be power consumption whenever the corridor is upgraded to electric. One journey would require up to 528$ worth of electricity, and depending on the electrification voltage they will be choosing, it may not be worth the costs.

 

[smallspy]

Is there even room at Union Station for 13, 14, 15, 16 car trains?

Considering that they can fit a 30 car Canadian....yeah, that wouldn't be a problem.

The bigger issue is that the MP40s can't handle any more than 12 car trains.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Considering that they can fit a 30 car Canadian....yeah, that wouldn't be a problem.

The bigger issue is that the MP40s can't handle any more than 12 car trains.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I can’t find any information on the length of the canadian’s cars, but the Budds most certainly aren’t as long as a Bilevel coach. I also always thought they just split the trains when they came into union so that’s news to me.

With regards to the MP40s, a fully loaded train can carry over 5000 people, the weight of the cars is 600 tones, and the weight of the people (not including bags) is around 400 tones. That’s 1000 tonnes total. A regular locomotive should be able to haul about 4000 tones, but mind you, these are passenger vehicles, so they’re going to have brake redundancies, including load weight. Also, the locomotives have to generate electricity for the passengers, lights, doors, announcements, toilets, HVAC, etc. Besides, I don’t think metrolinx wants to run the locomotives at full power, wasting fuel and equipment wear (ie, the CPTDB debate).

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Is there even room at Union Station for 13, 14, 15, 16 car trains?

Considering they were pondering double-berthing trains at one point, easily, but only on the middle platforms that don't start running into the ladders (i.e. not 3, 4/5, 6/7, 24/25, 26/27, 28/29).

Well what about MP54's that we are getting?

Maybe. But isn't there a point where you gotta distribute your power along more wheels? And manage the intertrain forces?

Would it work better to book-end consists with two MP40s, like there were doing with the F59s? I've wondered if they found any slight operational improvements from that.

 

[smallspy]

I can’t find any information on the length of the canadian’s cars, but the Budds most certainly aren’t as long as a Bilevel coach. I also always thought they just split the trains when they came into union so that’s news to me.

With regards to the MP40s, a fully loaded train can carry over 5000 people, the weight of the cars is 600 tones, and the weight of the people (not including bags) is around 400 tones. That’s 1000 tonnes total. A regular locomotive should be able to haul about 4000 tones, but mind you, these are passenger vehicles, so they’re going to have brake redundancies, including load weight. Also, the locomotives have to generate electricity for the passengers, lights, doors, announcements, toilets, HVAC, etc. Besides, I don’t think metrolinx wants to run the locomotives at full power, wasting fuel and equipment wear (ie, the CPTDB debate).

BiLevel cars are 85 feet over the striker plates (diaphragm ends). With the exception of a couple of cars - baggages, RPOs - Budd-built cars are 85'4". If you can see a 4 inch difference over 85 feet, you need to get a job surveying without a transit.

The limiting factor about how much an MP40 or MP54 can haul is not weight. An MP40 can easily move a 4000 tonne train on its own - just don't ask it to do it on an uphill or go very fast with it.

No, the limit is HEP output - in the case of both of those units, it's about 700kw. The average BiLevel car draws about 53kw, so you can see how there isn't much of a fudge factor beyond a 12 car train.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Kevin Lynch]

Can anyone confirm exactly which GO Transit track expansion projects are currently under construction or about to start construction. My understanding is as follows:

Stouffville Line:
-Phase 1 (Marilyn to Steeles) 2nd track U/C
-Phase 2 (South of Marilyn) 2nd track about to commence
-Steeles grade separation, Milliken stn, Agincourt stn expansion (not sure if this includes double-tracking from Steeles to just past Kennedy North): U/C

Lakeshore E:
-Scarborough GC to Pickering - 3rd track and 3 grade separations: U/C
-Don River to Scarborough Jct - 4th track: about to commence

Milton:
-West Toronto Jct - 2nd track from west to south: U/C

Barrie:
-Parkdale Jct to Strachan(?) - 2nd track: ???
-Rutherford and Maple station expansions (but doesn't include track work yet): U/C

Kitchener/UP:
-409/401 tunnel - 2 tracks: U/C
-Humber River to Bloor (?) - 4th track: U/C

Lakeshore W:
-Extension to Stoney Creek: U/C
-Bayview Jct - additional track: U/C (or is it complete?)

 

[innsertnamehere]

Stouffville Line:


-Phase 1 (Marilyn to Steeles) 2nd track U/C
-Phase 2 (South of Marilyn) 2nd track about to commence
-Steeles grade separation, Milliken stn, Agincourt stn expansion (not sure if this includes double-tracking from Steeles to just past Kennedy North): U/C

Lakeshore E:
-Scarborough GC to Pickering - 3rd track and 3 grade separations: U/C
-Don River to Scarborough Jct - 4th track: about to commence

Milton:
-West Toronto Jct - 2nd track from west to south: U/C

Barrie:
-Parkdale Jct to Strachan(?) - 2nd track: ???
-Rutherford and Maple station expansions (but doesn't include track work yet): U/C

Kitchener/UP:
-409/401 tunnel - 2 tracks: U/C
-Humber River to Bloor (?) - 4th track: U/C

Lakeshore W:
-Extension to Stoney Creek: U/C
-Bayview Jct - additional track: U/C (or is it complete?)

I've highlighted what I believe is under construction right now. A lot of the other ones will be starting this year, but haven't actually started yet, from my understanding. The double tracking north of Steeles on the Stouffville line is the same contract as the part south of steeles. Station expansions are separate contracts. Bayview Junction may be complete, not entirely sure.

 

[smallspy]

Can anyone confirm exactly which GO Transit track expansion projects are currently under construction or about to start construction. My understanding is as follows:

Stouffville Line:
-Phase 1 (Marilyn to Steeles) 2nd track U/C
-Phase 2 (South of Marilyn) 2nd track about to commence
-Steeles grade separation, Milliken stn, Agincourt stn expansion (not sure if this includes double-tracking from Steeles to just past Kennedy North): U/C

Phase 1 and 2 are both under construction, with Phase 1 being further along. This is also independent of the work required to improve the stations, for which a winner has not yet been selected: http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/RER-Stouffville-Corridor/

I think that the Steeles Grade Separation is scheduled to start this spring.

Lakeshore E:
-Scarborough GC to Pickering - 3rd track and 3 grade separations: U/C
-Don River to Scarborough Jct - 4th track: about to commence

The project to build the third track from Guildwood to Pickering has been split into two: http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/RER-Lakeshore-East/ and http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/RER-Lakeshore-East-Central-Corridor-Expansion/. This excludes the work being done at Guildwood Station, which is about half-way done.

The Don to Scarborough Junction segment has not yet been released for tender.

Milton:
-West Toronto Jct - 2nd track from west to south: U/C

This was supposed to have been completed by now. I have no update other than the work started last summer.

Barrie:
-Parkdale Jct to Strachan(?) - 2nd track: ???
-Rutherford and Maple station expansions (but doesn't include track work yet): U/C

They need to build a first track from Parkdale to Strachan before they can build a second track. I know that this is planned, but I have yet to see a schedule for it.

The request for proposals has been made for the expansion of Rutherford Station (http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Rutherford-Station/) but nothing further. The tunnels under the tracks here and at Maple and Aurora were placed under a separate series of contracts and were completed in the fall.

There are two other important contracts for the Barrie Line. The first is the grade separation at Davenport: http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/RER-Davenport-Diamond-Rail-Grade-Separation/. The second is the building of the second track from Parkdale to Aurora (exclusive of the existing segments): http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Barrie-Rail-Corridor-Expansion-Project/. Neither of these projects are close to under construction yet.

Kitchener/UP:
-409/401 tunnel - 2 tracks: U/C
-Humber River to Bloor (?) - 4th track: U/C

The winning bidder has been chosen for the 401 tunnel, but the construction isn't likely to start until the spring: http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/RER-Highway-401-Rail-Tunnel/

The 4th track from Humber to Jane is currently under construction, with the section further south slated to start in the spring. The tenders to expand the stations at Weston and Bloor haven't been issued yet.

Lakeshore W:
-Extension to Stoney Creek: U/C
-Bayview Jct - additional track: U/C (or is it complete?)

Work on Confederation Station is underway, although I don't know how far along that is just yet. They don't seem to have done much for any of the supporting trackwork yet.

When I was in the area before Christmas, they had not started on the additional track from Bayview/Hamilton West to West Harbour.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.