hw621
Senior Member
world partners = Bombardier?
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
The all-in value of this Package 3 is substantially larger than VIA HFR ($8-11B vs $5-6B). If Ontario does bring this to tender, and completes the deal, and does so this year.... that compares very favourably to all the pussyfooting going on in Ottawa around VIA. And, VIA is now third in line after Ontario, and REM) when competing for talent and resources if/when HFR is launched. So much for needing an infrastructure bank to raise the money.
Actually, money is not the hardest part. This is a huge human capital exercise. ML is competing with transit construction and (perhaps) with HFR construction to put together a project management team. It's doable with world partners, but it's megaproject level stuff, and that brings megaproject level risks and challenges. Let's hope the project team gets put together well.
- Paul
Actually, money is not the hardest part. This is a huge human capital exercise. ML is competing with transit construction and (perhaps) with HFR construction to put together a project management team. It's doable with world partners, but it's megaproject level stuff, and that brings megaproject level risks and challenges. Let's hope the project team gets put together well.
- Paul
Allandale25
Senior Member
^ But in fairness somewhat to VIA, I do wonder if not only the different histories of the organizations and their structures matters (GO/Metrolinx vs VIA), the fact that GO has done more EAs etc in recent years, and that RER is proposed for corridors they own. VIA is proposing to put back in track that hasn't been there for 40 years...
steveintoronto
Superstar
Bombardier are cash-poor. It's someone who'd either partner with Bombardier, like CRRC, or just buy BBD's North Am rail business which has been up for sale for a while, (the Europeans would buy back the European BBD rail facilities) and use their capacity to build and operate here.
Alstom and Siemens are also very ripe possibilities, both cash rich. The likelihood of private partners combining HFR and Ontario HSR (it won't be true HSR, but 'higher speed rail') is high. The RoW might exist under two separate entities, but the service would be run-through and continuous.
I don't have Siemen's results handy, but here's Alstom's:
http://www.alstom.com/press-centre/2017/11/excellent-results-for-alstom-in-the-first-half-of-201718/
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Yes, if not exceeding the UPx standard. GO is planning entire station canopies (over the platform and tracks) on some of the RER stations.
crs1026
Superstar
After thinking more about this, the projects have enough apples and oranges that I wouldn't try to argue that one is inherently more "complex" than the other. Miles of ROW? Number of municipalities crossed? Absolute number of neighbouring landowners affected? Number of major civil structures required? First Nations issues? Number of known environmentally sensitive challenges or zones? It's a mug's game to get into that detail and argue puts and takes. That's why I would just stick to the high level dollar value as the measure of which project is "larger".
It's certainly apparent that Ontario feels it can find the money easily enough through a direct D-F-B-O-M RFQ-RFP procurement, whereas Ottawa seems to see the funding step as paramount and the reason for such slow progress. Maybe that's just a convenient excuse for delay. And/or maybe Ontario is reckless with borrowing money, and ought to do more due diligence.
- Paul
It will be really interesting to see how this gets framed in terms of the election. Does it fly under the radar? Does it get the stamp of approval from all parties (the PCs love the private sector, so having them involved in this should be a plus)? Or does it become a lightning rod example of "rampant Liberal spending"? I honestly don't know whether the narrative will focus on the massive benefits or the massive price tag, or if it'll just fly under the radar completely because it doesn't fit into the "subways vs LRTs" back and forth.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The now defunct patrick brown plan retained all existing transit commitments anyway. We will see how that changes under new leadership.
And yes, the Conservatives are still shaking the 407 sale and subway cancellations from their image. They aren't going to go repeat it.
And yes, the Conservatives are still shaking the 407 sale and subway cancellations from their image. They aren't going to go repeat it.
crs1026
Superstar
Don't lose sight of Conservative DNA.
Brown may have been guilty of misconduct, but the speed of his departure is attributable to the more extreme factions of the party being unhappy with his centrist platform, and cutting his knees out from under him the moment they saw the opportunity. The transit naysayers are still there in the bushes, warming up their automobiles.
There is too much opportunity for the Conservatives to defer or downsize the transit portfolio, without coming across as having 'cancelled' anything. More study, more study.... meanwhile roads keep getting built.
- Paul
Brown may have been guilty of misconduct, but the speed of his departure is attributable to the more extreme factions of the party being unhappy with his centrist platform, and cutting his knees out from under him the moment they saw the opportunity. The transit naysayers are still there in the bushes, warming up their automobiles.
There is too much opportunity for the Conservatives to defer or downsize the transit portfolio, without coming across as having 'cancelled' anything. More study, more study.... meanwhile roads keep getting built.
- Paul
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micheal_can
Senior Member
The problem I see is that his departure, and the mess it has created has made the perfect storm where I doubt we will see them have much in the election. It will either be a Liberal majority/minority or a NDP minority.
Wynne will double down on transit.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
The Tories will not back down on RER, in fact in keeping with it's subway, subway, subway mantra, I could see the Tories doubling down on the effort to make the entire RER system grade separated and hence becoming a Metro/subway and labelling it as such. "Look Mom, the Liberals are only giving you 200km of GO trains but we will give you 200 km of subways". For the vast majority of Canadians {and the US for that matter} the idea of RER/suburban rail/S-Bahn is a rather nebulous concept. The average person {and hence voter} views it as just more frequent GO commuter rail service but everyone knows what a subway/Metro is and view it as the Gold Standard of public transit. The Tories will proclaim to those crucial 905 voters that the Liberals are only giving you more GO service while we will bring the subways to the suburbs.
If the Tories want to scale back it will be the DRL that gets cut where they won't get a seat anyway and NOT the 905 where they must gain a lot of seats to win the election.
If the Tories want to scale back it will be the DRL that gets cut where they won't get a seat anyway and NOT the 905 where they must gain a lot of seats to win the election.
raptor
Senior Member
Not the actual RER Package 3 RFP, but related:
RFP - Regional Express Rail Package 3 - Capital Markets Advisory Services
RFP - Regional Express Rail Package 3 - Capital Markets Advisory Services
mdrejhon
Senior Member
It's a subway! It's a metro! It's a commuter train! It's rapid transit! It's superman!
That looks like a chamelon, that changes color like a chamelon, so GO RER is a chamelon?
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
Ya I know it sounds kind of childish but words matter. The TTC knows this which is why it has gone out of it's way to tell Torontonians that LRTs are not just streetcars which of technologically, that's exactly what it is.
Few Canadians and Torontonians have a real idea of what RER is and this isn't helped by Metrolinx which has not even decided on what kinds of trains they are going to run or how much they will cost. To most people, RER is just more GO trains and that is all they have seen so far so who can blame them? RER, if it got rid of it's relatively few at-grade sections, would be a standard Metro and that is something Torontonians can understand and appreciate.
Few Canadians and Torontonians have a real idea of what RER is and this isn't helped by Metrolinx which has not even decided on what kinds of trains they are going to run or how much they will cost. To most people, RER is just more GO trains and that is all they have seen so far so who can blame them? RER, if it got rid of it's relatively few at-grade sections, would be a standard Metro and that is something Torontonians can understand and appreciate.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Gave you thumbs up, but there isn't such a thing as a "standard" metro. "Metro" encompasses many forms of vehicle. It's more how it's used than it's physical form.
Will RER be a 'form' of 'metro'? Absolutely, and if Verster is to be believed, (Like Mayor, he has only one vote on 'council') it will be a functionally sophisticated and effective one. Verster is emphasising the 'interurban' aspect as much as the suburban/regional one.