steveintoronto
Superstar
It's up to "bidders" to determine a lot more than that.
Replay starts at 5:50 mins in.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Replay starts at 5:50 mins in.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Over what period of time would these savings of $35B be achieved?
Garuda
Active Member
Yes but I’m referring to those who will read this thread within the next week.
steveintoronto
Superstar
If it's like previous ones, you can watch it, just not live, for some time:
Ended 1 hour ago
Ask Metrolinx
Metrolinx151 Charles St W, Kitchener, ON N2G 1H6, Canada
Ask Metrolinx Town Halls are your opportunity to ask our leadership questions about Metrolinx services, regional transit planning and anything top of mind for you....
More
WATCH AGAIN
Here: https://livestream.com/accounts/7089549/events/7965030/videos/188294293
I've just found the time to watch it now, albeit I'll be fast forwarding through a lot of the filler.
Garuda
Active Member
Take note, there was a lot of back and forth and some of the juicy bits were dropped during the back and forth with those asking questions in person. I was sitting in the front tow and I could tell that Ohil just wanted to go into much more detail.If it's like previous ones, you can watch it, just not live, for some time:
Ended 1 hour ago
Ask Metrolinx
151 Charles St W, Kitchener, ON N2G 1H6, Canada
Ask Metrolinx Town Halls are your opportunity to ask our leadership questions about Metrolinx services, regional transit planning and anything top of mind for you....
More
WATCH AGAIN
Here: https://livestream.com/accounts/7089549/events/7965030/videos/188294293
I've just found the time to watch it now, albeit I'll be fast forwarding through a lot of the filler.
You pretty much have to watch watch the whole thing without skipping.
crs1026
Superstar
Verster got moderated away from saying too much about where the Cabinet is at.
He did seem to imply that a flyover is in the works for Georgetown.
- Paul
He did seem to imply that a flyover is in the works for Georgetown.
- Paul
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
He gave a killer description of all the infrastructure required for Kitchener service to be achieved without the bypass, and yes he did say new platforms and a flyover were needed for Georgetown. I'm super impressed at his knowledge level for such technical details.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I got to 27:00, and the talk about the "By-Pass"...and my immediate thought was "Well, most of the same staff were there then, how can you expect me to accept the story you're telling now?"
I'll try and watch more later when I'm in the mood. I got taken-in by Verster in his first public interview which led me to post nice things in these forums, and the story that Jonathan English had featured here at UT.
I believed him. I was a fool. He's talking a very different story now on the By-Pass.
Addendum: Just looking to see who else online thought "I won't get fooled again" by Verster, and here's discussion on the UT interview I referenced above:
Metrolinx Updates News Stations Business Cases
In anticipation of its board meeting on March 8, 2018, Metrolinx has released a report updating its analyses of various proposed new GO stations, some of which are intended to serve John Tory’…
stevemunro.ca
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crs1026
Superstar
^There was a definite change in Verster’s story from past town halls, when he described negotiations with CN as being the obstacle to Kitchener service... it now sounded that agreement has been reached quietly, and now the challenge is getting government commitment to spend. Since Ottawa promised money for Kitchener, and it’s almost election time, I expect the stars will align soon.
The odd about-face was how he talked about needing to have carefully prepared BCS’s for everything they do (hence no early prospect of Cambridge service) but that Kitchener, Niagara, and Bowmanville could proceed without them. My translation: this provincial government doesn’t run on fact, so whatever we can get them to fund, we’re doing - bcs or not.
One has to accept that many of the things that were talked about previously were actually grandiose window dressing that had little prospect of substance. In hindsight ML was sent down a rabbit hole by being directed to study these.... my complaint is that ML has always been a study factory rather than a design-construct-operate enterprise. I think Verster is probably reading the new government well in terms of not talking in megaproject terms and not asking for huge amounts that will provoke sticker shock. Perhaps putting out that failed Kitchener schedule was not so bad a move.... it cost him an apology, but convinced the government that a go-slow approach to 2WAD wasn’t a good idea politically.
- Paul
The odd about-face was how he talked about needing to have carefully prepared BCS’s for everything they do (hence no early prospect of Cambridge service) but that Kitchener, Niagara, and Bowmanville could proceed without them. My translation: this provincial government doesn’t run on fact, so whatever we can get them to fund, we’re doing - bcs or not.
One has to accept that many of the things that were talked about previously were actually grandiose window dressing that had little prospect of substance. In hindsight ML was sent down a rabbit hole by being directed to study these.... my complaint is that ML has always been a study factory rather than a design-construct-operate enterprise. I think Verster is probably reading the new government well in terms of not talking in megaproject terms and not asking for huge amounts that will provoke sticker shock. Perhaps putting out that failed Kitchener schedule was not so bad a move.... it cost him an apology, but convinced the government that a go-slow approach to 2WAD wasn’t a good idea politically.
- Paul
ShonTron
Moderator
I can think of a few grade separations that could be worth it: Trafalgar Road west of Georgetown, Highway 7 and 25 at Acton (though both would be challenging - perhaps a bypass north of the railway is needed for through traffic), Main Street at Rockwood, Bingeman's, and Lancaster Street. Maybe Wellington Road 32. But all the major grade crossings in Guelph are done, and there are still plenty of rural crossings that shouldn't necessarily be grade separated unless it was work to build a higher speed line with frequent service. Hmmmm..
timio
Active Member
^ Fourth Line in Rockwood would also be a good candidate. It's a bit of a blind corner from the south and also lessens the chance of a train running into a combine decked out in festive decorations during the parade of lights.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I did watch more of the meeting last night up until the last half hour. I had to come up for air. My eyes glaze over when Metrolinx talks flyovers. They're everywhere in much of Europe. There must be at least twenty going into London on the commuter lines as they merge into mainlines, and have been for generations.
By the time sufficient flyovers and all the diversions, passing loops and machinations are done for the K/W route, it would have cost no more to build the Freight Bypass, all other advantages included. I found the meeting, by and large, a fantasy fest.
One thing that was interesting was James Smith's appearance at 47:00. He's a passing acquaintance from my time in Guelph. He speaks, and quite eloquently, for many in Guelph on the need to 'tie together' the western branches of GO service north to south, and Aldershot is the hub to doing that. Metrolinx responded on the (snore) "Business Case" for it. There isn't one in overhead traffic, no-one has been able to make it pay, but that belies the need for doing it. ML then mentioned (gist) "either single decker or double-decker"....but then (was it Woo?) stated, knowing that even a single decker would be overkill, (gist) "but we can take other forms into consideration, second parties such as Uber, etc". Wow! Now that was the only point of what I watched of what I did of the meeting that I considered a take-away. The rest was just musing, contrary to Phil's Philatio of "it's really happening".
GO needs to run two links (albeit I think in concert with the Regions, Counties and Cities involved) that can be combined into one: An "About Town" revisit type of 'airport van' to connect the K/W unis and GRT to Guelph and uni via Hwy 7 and then south via Aberfoyle and Waterdown to Aldershot. Perhaps run by a contractor, but fully GO fare inclusive with an operating subsidy from the local gov'ts. (Perhaps via GRT, Guelph Transit and Burlington/Hamilton transit)
This is policy for the here and now, can be implemented within months, and has next to zero risk. In fact, I'll check the Guelph and K/W media to see if this is mentioned. Any commuter system of size has to run connecting links that don't stand on the basis of "Business Case" in the orthodox sense, but are essential to underwrite the business case of the connections.
Some of the questions from the floor were awkwardly presented, but had brilliant points to make. That is one.
Addendum: Short on time to edit or look more fully, but today's Guelph Mercury (shared from K/W Record):
www.guelphmercury.com
One further comment I must make at this time is again about the buses, and here and now (I'm beyond cynical on the train promises). The 30 route came up a few times in the meeting, and for the record, it does the distance Bramalea to K/W faster than the train does, albeit the train has stops. It's my opinion that the 30 should loop at Aberfoyle, which according to a couple of inspectors/planners I've spoken with, exact only a ten minute penalty. But the question has to arise why the route isn't extended to other connections further east when the day-time train isn't running? Bramalea is the middle of nowhere without that connecting train. And then there's the possibility of running it into Pearson to connect with UPX when the day train finished, but alas, that's a bitch-fest for another time.
I'd find Metrolinx a whole lot more believable if they delivered on the obvious here and now. And they can do a hell of a lot more with their buses, and do them in a few month time frame to deliver.
Btw: I was amazed the old GWR branch from Guelph to Cambridge came up yet again. It's next to unusable, it's only desperation that keeps the dead body coming to the surface. Not only are the rails and roadbed in atrocious shape, the physical infrastructure under it is too. Look! Squirrel, over there, on the tracks to Cambridge!
By the time sufficient flyovers and all the diversions, passing loops and machinations are done for the K/W route, it would have cost no more to build the Freight Bypass, all other advantages included. I found the meeting, by and large, a fantasy fest.
One thing that was interesting was James Smith's appearance at 47:00. He's a passing acquaintance from my time in Guelph. He speaks, and quite eloquently, for many in Guelph on the need to 'tie together' the western branches of GO service north to south, and Aldershot is the hub to doing that. Metrolinx responded on the (snore) "Business Case" for it. There isn't one in overhead traffic, no-one has been able to make it pay, but that belies the need for doing it. ML then mentioned (gist) "either single decker or double-decker"....but then (was it Woo?) stated, knowing that even a single decker would be overkill, (gist) "but we can take other forms into consideration, second parties such as Uber, etc". Wow! Now that was the only point of what I watched of what I did of the meeting that I considered a take-away. The rest was just musing, contrary to Phil's Philatio of "it's really happening".
GO needs to run two links (albeit I think in concert with the Regions, Counties and Cities involved) that can be combined into one: An "About Town" revisit type of 'airport van' to connect the K/W unis and GRT to Guelph and uni via Hwy 7 and then south via Aberfoyle and Waterdown to Aldershot. Perhaps run by a contractor, but fully GO fare inclusive with an operating subsidy from the local gov'ts. (Perhaps via GRT, Guelph Transit and Burlington/Hamilton transit)
This is policy for the here and now, can be implemented within months, and has next to zero risk. In fact, I'll check the Guelph and K/W media to see if this is mentioned. Any commuter system of size has to run connecting links that don't stand on the basis of "Business Case" in the orthodox sense, but are essential to underwrite the business case of the connections.
Some of the questions from the floor were awkwardly presented, but had brilliant points to make. That is one.
Addendum: Short on time to edit or look more fully, but today's Guelph Mercury (shared from K/W Record):
At least one more GO train coming to Kitchener in about a year, Metrolinx says
Improving service to Kitchener is “one of my three highest objectives,” agency’s CEO said in town hall.
NEWS 10:08 PM Waterloo Region Record
Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster, second from right, said to a packed audience that they can “take comfort from this meeting that more services are coming within the next year, ish.” - Peter Lee , Waterloo Region Record
KITCHENER — Metrolinx will add at least another train between Kitchener and Toronto within a year or so, Metrolinx chief executive Phil Verster pledged in a town hall event in Kitchener Monday night.
Improving service to Kitchener is "one of my three highest objectives," Verster told the standing-room only crowd at the town hall.
As well as increasing the number of trains, GO is working to shorten the travel time, officials also said.
More than 150 people — with another 75 following online — packed the Communitech offices at the Tannery for the chance to hear from top brass at Metrolinx, the provincial body that runs the province's GO bus and train network.
"We're telling you that we are now increasing services," Verster said. "We've done the first increase in January. We had four trains in a day and we now have five. We intend to do more."
He said he couldn't be more specific because "it won't be wise for me to scoop a minister's announcement, but you can take comfort from this meeting that more services are coming within the next year, ish."
Questions about improved service to Kitchener dominated the 90-minute session.
Metrolinx holds town halls four times a year, though this is the first time one has been held outside Toronto.
Local business and government leaders have been pushing hard for the province to bring all-day, two-way GO train service to the region, saying it is crucial to this area's economy.
Metrolinx added a fifth train from Kitchener in January. They run weekday mornings between 5:15 a.m. and 7:10 a.m., and every weekday afternoon from 3:35 p.m. to 6:50 p.m. Ridership to and from Kitchener increased 5.4 per cent between April and November last year, with 41,000 people taking the train, averaging 237 people a day.
A key to improving service to Kitchener is dealing with a bottleneck in Georgetown, he said. Metrolinx has already signed a $75-million contract to address the bottleneck. When that work is complete next year, it will be possible to add more trains to Kitchener, he said.
Verster stressed that Metrolinx's abandonment of a plan to build a $4 billion to $5 billion freight bypass was a sign of its commitment to improve service to Kitchener, not a sign that it was less committed. Instead of building a very expensive bypass that would take years, Metrolinx negotiated with CN to build smaller "passing loops" to relieve bottlenecks along the line, he said.
"We don't have to build the freight bypass and we can get the services to Kitchener sooner," Verster said.
A shorter trip is also a priority, said Greg Percy, Metrolinx chief operating officer. "In no way should you interpret the current schedule as acceptable," he told the audience. His target is to trim the trip from two hours and five minutes to 90 minutes.
One reason for the slowdowns is the 33 level crossings between Georgetown and Kitchener, which force the trains to slow down. Metrolinx is negotiating with the municipalities where the crossings are located to see if some roads can be closed at the rail line.
cthompson@therecord.com
At least one more GO train coming to Kitchener in about a year, Metrolinx says
Improving service to Kitchener is “one of my three highest objectives,” agency’s CEO said in town hall.
www.guelphmercury.com
One further comment I must make at this time is again about the buses, and here and now (I'm beyond cynical on the train promises). The 30 route came up a few times in the meeting, and for the record, it does the distance Bramalea to K/W faster than the train does, albeit the train has stops. It's my opinion that the 30 should loop at Aberfoyle, which according to a couple of inspectors/planners I've spoken with, exact only a ten minute penalty. But the question has to arise why the route isn't extended to other connections further east when the day-time train isn't running? Bramalea is the middle of nowhere without that connecting train. And then there's the possibility of running it into Pearson to connect with UPX when the day train finished, but alas, that's a bitch-fest for another time.
I'd find Metrolinx a whole lot more believable if they delivered on the obvious here and now. And they can do a hell of a lot more with their buses, and do them in a few month time frame to deliver.
Btw: I was amazed the old GWR branch from Guelph to Cambridge came up yet again. It's next to unusable, it's only desperation that keeps the dead body coming to the surface. Not only are the rails and roadbed in atrocious shape, the physical infrastructure under it is too. Look! Squirrel, over there, on the tracks to Cambridge!
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Allandale25
Senior Member
By "BCS's" do you mean the Business Case Analysis?
Phil also said last night that they came to an agreement with CN on the "minimum infrastructure required" and that they'll spend $75 million on the Georgetown solution. I wonder when we'll know if they are going to spend anything on the two-track section through downtown Brampton.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Flyovers in Canada are slightly more challenging, I would argue. The UK loading gauge is a bit more forgiving than having to allow for what Metrolinx/CN does, not to mention in Georgetown-Silver Junction the limited space between Silver Junction and the river to accomplish the transition.
ShonTron
Moderator
Metrolinx should build a replacement storage yard for Georgetown, either at Winston Churchill Boulevard or towards Limehouse, so it an handle 12-car trains and rebuild Georgetown Station so it is no longer subject to yard speed restrictions. VIA trains could then also stop at the north side of GO, leaving the south side for CN freights. The flyover/flyunder then can be somewhere where there's plenty of room, such as just west of Mount Pleasant Station.