[bpbpbpbp]

Aren't they already having to demolish the nearby office building just to get the third track in there?


Or we could work with CN to build the Missing Link/ 407 freight bypass and give MX access to all three tracks and operate the Kitchener line similarly to the LSW line. Express service, etc.

I still don't fully understand how the recent track sharing agreement on the Kitchener line between CN and GO is suppose to work.

Yup 8 Nelson St W is probably going to be gone for the third track.

I too don't completely understand how that agreement will work, my main concern is if and how MX will have access to two tracks, or if the third Downtown Brampton track will be in a sort of "passing" configuration, with trains going in both directions using that track.

As for the missing link proposal, it sounds absolutely amazing having a triple track corridor upto Georgetown. But the project doesn't seem feasible or very likely at this point, and with the CN land acquisition agreement, that seems kind of dead.

I do think that potentially some time in the future there will be *a* missing link built to get CN off the Halton for a future HSR route into Southwestern Ontario via Kitchener and London. In this case, a fourth track would be necessary to keep two for GO and two for HSR. A project like that would necessitate CN moving, and it would be the feds funding it, not the province. I'm wondering if anyone at MX has considered this.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

While the missing link sounds like a great idea, we're essentially asking CN and CPKC to give up a large section of existing rail in order to benefit GO operation. While they can agree on the concept, moving CN/CPKC onto the missing link creates complex issues with schedules and whether or not either rail company wants the other operating on their rail or not.

This becomes especially apparent when CN operates a lot of their service out of the York Sub. I think the biggest issue is that the proposal is just that, a proposal. Both CN/CPKC would have their own ideas of what the missing link should look like, but whether or not it would benefit both of them remains to be seen if they have proposals of their own.

Yup 8 Nelson St W is probably going to be gone for the third track.

It looks like 8 Nelson will just be rebuilt, but in a way to make it beneficial for the 3rd track. The sections labelled as "5 Existing Bus station" and "Potential LRT access" are both considered 8 Nelson.

IIRC, the section labelled "5 Metrolinx Parking / Future Development" - The developers had to have their scope changed by the city to accommodate the third track by shedding one building and going from 3 condos to two in a different configuration.

In any case, it's easier said than done. I'm hopeful about this, but I also remain ambivalent about the start date of the project.

 

[crs1026]

The puzzle for me in that graphic is the suggestion that the north side will remain a GO platform. Does the new agreement with CN contemplate GO actually using three tracks? VIA uses the north track but it has been a long time since I have seen a GO train use it.

I have long suspected (on the basis of some artwork that leaked out of ML a while back) that ML had put forward an argument that, having paid for the second track thru Brampton East-Peel in 2007-2009, they had some residual priority to its use that supersedes CN's use of it.

I can envision changes to the interlockings that would allow two simultaneous routings of GO through Brampton, ie CN having its (suspected) existing priority only on the northmost track. But the need for the third platform is unclear.

I also saw drawings way, way back that envisioned a 4-track layout at a later date....the sticking point being the need to move or demolish the heritage depot.

It's pretty clear from the recent announcements, which align to what ML people have said off line, that for the most part the new deal is land sharing rather than track sharing....ie the ML line will be its own railway akin to the GO Sub on LSE. Brampton is likely an exception to that as it is a choke point. How the two railways will "share" that zone is unclear....

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

The missing link is dead and completely unnecessary with the Metrolinx agreement with CN.

My understanding of the agreement is that GO will effectively build it's own dedicated parallel corridor to the CN corridor similar to what the Lakeshore East line operates on in Durham Region. It won't be cheap, but it will be a lot cheaper than the Missing Link.

I suspect CN has accepted a single track through downtown Brampton as a part of the agreement with Metrolinx getting two dedicated tracks.

 

[Bojaxs]

While they can agree on the concept, moving CN/CPKC onto the missing link creates complex issues with schedules and whether or not either rail company wants the other operating on their rail or not.

Hence why I've proposed (in the Missing Link thread) two separate freight bypasses.

407 freight bypass for CN (Kitchener Line)
413 freight bypass for CPKC (Milton Line)

 

[urbancog]

My understanding of the agreement is that GO will effectively build it's own dedicated parallel corridor to the CN corridor similar to what the Lakeshore East line operates on in Durham Region

The "Corridor Missions" presented at the last Metrolinx Board meeting suggest that the first incremental service upgrade will be 60-min All-day service to Kitchener. Which will require building the grade separated junction between Winston Churchill Blvd and the Credit Bridge (not at Silver Junction) and the passing track in Guelph (with Acton passing track for service resilience?). Reconfiguring Georgetown station with 2 through tracks is not mentioned anywhere but is on the capital projects list for RfP in 2027.

When the full 2-tracks along the Metrolinx Halton sub are complete, this will deliver 30-min All-day service to Mt Pleasant.

 

[bpbpbpbp]

Hence why I've proposed two separate freight bypasses.

407 freight bypass for CN (Kitcher Line)
413 freight bypass for CPKC (Milton Line)

Thought this Spongebob clip was fitting

But those bypasses are probably not happening anytime soon. Money unfortunately doesn’t grow on trees and if MX had a double track corridor through Downtown Brampton with the land deal, we can work around that pretty damn well. I’ve come to terms with the fact that the bypass is dead, and am not putting too much weight into GO 2.0 right now. I think if Milton and Midtown see better service, that can be acheived without a bypass, though that too is far away. Two bypasses would cost probably in the double digit billions, and the 413 is probably not going to be suitable for a rail ROW. Now that I think about it, I think we were talking about this exact argument in a reddit comment section a few weeks ago lol

 

[Bojaxs]

View attachment 702121

Thought this Spongebob clip was fitting

But those bypasses are probably not happening anytime soon. Money unfortunately doesn’t grow on trees and if MX had a double track corridor through Downtown Brampton with the land deal, we can work around that pretty damn well. I’ve come to terms with the fact that the bypass is dead, and am not putting too much weight into GO 2.0 right now. I think if Milton and Midtown see better service, that can be acheived without a bypass, though that too is far away. Two bypasses would cost probably in the double digit billions, and the 413 is probably not going to be suitable for a rail ROW. Now that I think about it, I think we were talking about this exact argument in a reddit comment section a few weeks ago lol

You really believe CN would relegate themselves to a single track between Georgetown and Bramalea?

Last I check, nothing was signed off on this track sharing agreement. It was just an "understanding" between CN and the Ontario government.

So I wouldn't rule out the freight bypass yet.

 

[bpbpbpbp]

You really believe CN would relegate themselves to a single track between Georgetown and Bramalea?

Last I check, nothing was signed off on this track sharing agreement. It was just an "understanding" between CN and the Ontario government.

So I wouldn't rule out the freight bypass yet.

To be fair as far as I understand the triple track bottleneck is only going to be in Downtown Brampton, the rest of the way from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant at least from my understanding, will see a fourth track go in.

I believe it’ll be triple tracked the rest of the way to Georgetown, which given the long term service plan, makes sense with the ending of 30 minute service at Mount Pleasant. With this, it looks like there will be a CN double track maintained from Silver to Halwest with a potentially small single track area in downtown Brampton. If that’s the configuration things are going to be in, doesn’t seem like the end of the world for CN, they’re definitely getting a deal they’re satisfied with, running rights probably being a part of it. And maybe it will in fact be Metrolinx who has to suck it up with just the one track Downtown after all, can’t say for certain.

As for the “understanding”, one thing it has over a CN bypass is the fact that it’s at least being worked on, and probably won’t fall apart. There’s nothing on the Bypass as of now. Which is why I consider it to be unlikely.

 

[ARG1]

Hence why I've proposed (in the Missing Link thread) two separate freight bypasses.

407 freight bypass for CN (Kitchener Line)
413 freight bypass for CPKC (Milton Line)

You still haven't adequately explained how the 413 bypass will do anything other than remove Galt <--> MacTier trains. A 413 bypass does not and will not remove trains from the Midtown Corridor.

 

[Bojaxs]

You still haven't adequately explained how the 413 bypass will do anything other than remove Galt <--> MacTier trains. A 413 bypass does not and will not remove trains from the Midtown Corridor.

I acknowledged that the 413 bypass was specific to the Milton line and not for the Midtown line.

But the 413 bypass could be the first phase in an all encompassing Toronto bypass for CPKC. Particularly if the Ontario government plans to extend the 413 eastwards pass the 400. Hypothetically speaking ofcourse.

 

[ARG1]

I acknowledged that the 413 bypass was specific to the Milton line and not for the Midtown line.

But the 413 bypass could be the first phase in an all encompassing Toronto bypass for CPKC. Particularly if the Ontario government plans to extend the 413 eastwards pass the 400. Hypothetically speaking ofcourse.

But CP would never agree to that. As been explained several times before, the idea that CP freight trains should go up all the way to Kirby, then back down to West Toronto Junction before continuing east is frankly abused. It would genuinely be cheaper and easier to convince CN and CP to share the 407 corridor and York Sub than it would to get CP to divert trains all the way to Kirby.

And no, it won't be extended east for the same reason the 413 won't be extended east. There's already development and "stuff" to the east. Whatever the cost of such an extension would be, it wouldn't be worth the outcome.

 

[ZEBuilder]

The missing link is dead and completely unnecessary with the Metrolinx agreement with CN.

My understanding of the agreement is that GO will effectively build it's own dedicated parallel corridor to the CN corridor similar to what the Lakeshore East line operates on in Durham Region. It won't be cheap, but it will be a lot cheaper than the Missing Link.

I suspect CN has accepted a single track through downtown Brampton as a part of the agreement with Metrolinx getting two dedicated tracks.

It's currently designed as 2 tracks for CN from Georgetown to the flyover with 1 Metrolinx, then 2 tracks for both Metrolinx and CN to downtown Brampton, where the switches will allow for 1 dedicated track for both CN and Metrolinx and 1 shared track, then it widens back to 2 and 2.

 

[Sauga89]

Metrolinx is planning to replace the Grand River bridge on the Kitchener Line over the course of the next two years.

They listed the planned construction weekends for the next two years.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yup 8 Nelson St W is probably going to be gone for the third track.

I too don't completely understand how that agreement will work, my main concern is if and how MX will have access to two tracks, or if the third Downtown Brampton track will be in a sort of "passing" configuration, with trains going in both directions using that track.

As for the missing link proposal, it sounds absolutely amazing having a triple track corridor upto Georgetown. But the project doesn't seem feasible or very likely at this point, and with the CN land acquisition agreement, that seems kind of dead.

I do think that potentially some time in the future there will be *a* missing link built to get CN off the Halton for a future HSR route into Southwestern Ontario via Kitchener and London. In this case, a fourth track would be necessary to keep two for GO and two for HSR. A project like that would necessitate CN moving, and it would be the feds funding it, not the province. I'm wondering if anyone at MX has considered this.

Still need to improve signalling at Georgetown since today it's still within yard limits which makes trains crawl through there.