News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 5.8K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 29K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 2.8K     0 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
20,224
Reaction score
47,919
I am not busting out the champagne yet - especially when it comes to frequencies. This is just the first part. The entire buildout is supposed to be 10+ billion dollars and 10 years is a long time.

As a side note, Champagne is entirely over-rated.......

When there is good news confirmed.......bust out the Amarone, a much better choice.
 

cplchanb

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
2,318
Reaction score
1,508
if they achieve frequencies anywhere close to what they're suggesting (less than 10 minutes, essentially), GO will basically be an express subway service in toronto especially once electrification speeds up train departures

trips being faster and more frequent is going to be a godsend.
All the more reason to get emus on the medium term. Perhaps they could stop gap with elect locos but no way they can achieve 210s gaps with those behemoth cattlecars
 

afransen

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,579
Reaction score
4,954
It'll be great to see the details. High frequencies will make the GO network incredibly valuable. I would expect that ridership will outperform the business case.
 

Reecemartin

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
227
Reaction score
770
City:
Toronto
Haven't posted in a while (though check out the article here I did on the announcement - https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2022/04/torontos-regional-rail-network-go)

For all those talking about 3.5 minute headways my understanding is this refers to what will be several key quad track sections, like around EX on LSW, LSE / Stouffville, and Kitchener on Gerorgetown south. That lines up with the roughly 7 minute headways we've heard about on dual track lines. So you'd get a 3.5ish min frequency when you consider combined local express service - unfortunately it isn't really organized in a way for that to be useful on most corridors, since we are planning on running the lines together (line running) rather than the directions together (directional running) this let us drop the Scarb Junc grade separation but means you can't just wait on the platform at say Dundas West and catch the next train because it's either a local or express to union, they are unlikely to be on the same island platform.

Re. no emus, I am as sad as anyone, but key things to note . . .

1) We don't have a facility to do maintenance on a giant EMU fleet, that would require lots of space and would be expensive (Whitby is gtg for electric locos!)
2) If a fleet of 200 streetcars is over a bullion dollars how much is a fleet of big mainline emus - clearly a lot of money to be saved here

As much as I want emus we also aren't designing the network for it . . . look at these stop spacings . . .

Tightest will be Mimico to Park Lawn (and not all trains will stop at both I imagine) at like 1km
Union to Spadina is also roughly 1km but only Barrie will stop (sadly)

Union - East Harbour ~2.5 km
Union - Exhibition ~3+ km
Union - King Liberty ~3+ km
Spadina - Lansdowne ~5 km
King Liberty - Bloor Dundas West ~3 km
St. Clair / Stockyards - Bloor Dundas West ~2 km

These stop spacings just aren't subway like, and while the potential to add more stations is there, with the subway network we are building there is less and less need to provide super local service on GO. That can always chance in the future but shorter trains plus electric locos probably isn't going to be that different from EMUs at this point . . .

Also Zurich operates some trains with locos and very good service - it can be done . . .
 

reaperexpress

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
2,518
Reaction score
3,731
Regarding headways: Be careful what you wish for regarding very short headways. If your line only has a single track per direction (Barrie, Stouffville, LSE following introduction of line-based running) and your local service is very frequent, you can't have any express services. I for one don't want to be making every station stop en route from Barrie to Toronto.

Regarding EMUs, it is definitely disappointing that there is no talk of EMUs yet, but it is understandable given our massive inventory of well-maintained BiLevel coaches. Starting off simply with electric locomotives is logistically simpler, and the first order of electric locos can operate local services on the central portions of the lines which will be electrified first.

However, following that initial rollout, I hope that DB/Alstom will start transitioning the fleet to EMUs through attrition. New trainsets will be required for expanded service and to replace old BiLevels getting retired. In addition, there are 12 other railways which operate Bombardier BiLevel coaches, and there may be opportunities to sell off a few units here or there. It would be quite cost-effective to fill those needs by having a standing order for EMUs with a few delievered each year as required. As new EMUs arrive, they could displace the electric locomotives on the core local services. Those would be redeployed onto express services as the outer portions of lines get electrified.
 
Last edited:

DirectionNorth

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
723
Reaction score
1,384
Regarding headways: Be careful what you wish for regarding very short headways. If your line only has a single track per direction (Barrie, Stouffville, LSE following introduction of line-based running) and your local service is very frequent, you can't have any express services. I for one don't want to be making every station stop en route from Barrie to Toronto.
Which is why we need room for passing tracks left at as many stations as possible. Besides, a high frequency could include express trains.
 

crs1026

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
8,029
Reaction score
13,533
Which is why we need room for passing tracks left at as many stations as possible. Besides, a high frequency could include express trains.

By passing tracks, do you mean (for want of a better term) overtaking tracks? I would not put too much faith in a design that assumes overtaking at a single short siding.

The dwell time for an overtake at a fixed siding will likely exceed what the stopping service can permit, because of the spacing required… the express can only follow so close behind the local, and after making its stop the local must wait until the express is some safe distance ahead. Even factoring the dwell time needed at the station, any variation in the progress of either train will create delay for somebody.

If the signalling system is good enough, and the equipment’s braking/accel rate is high enought, it mostly works, but there is not much margin for variability in timings.

A better design needs a longer stretch of third track….. enough to span at least two stations, so the overtake has some margin for variability. The original GO route was built that way, between Scarborough and Guildwood for instance.

- Paul
 

EnviroTO

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,552
Reaction score
1,626
Luckily, GO has several parts of it's network which are entirely grade separated (or are planned to be from GO Expansion), and several more which are very close to that level.

- Stouffville from Unionville to Union
- Lakeshore West from Long Branch to Union
- Barrie to Caledonia GO
- Kitchener to Malton GO
- Lakeshore East to Eglinton GO
Caledonia GO? Was there another announcement that I missed?
 

innsertnamehere

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
17,118
Reaction score
15,984
City:
Toronto
Caledonia GO? Was there another announcement that I missed?
GO station going to be built at the Caledonia LRT station on the crosstown, not a GO station in Caledonia, Ontario, which is very, very far from the Barrie GO line and doesn't really even have a useful rail line which could even be used for GO service.

crosstown-map.jpg
 

yrt+viva=1system

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
446
Reaction score
567
I don’t understand why there so much concern about the lack of EMU. This is only the beginning of a transition for GO. There’s nothing wrong with running electric locomotives with the current Bilevels. Plenty of countries run commuter services with electric hauled locomotives (eg.SNCF, SBB etc.). I think concerns over acceleration are also overblown. Worst case scenario would be GO having two locomotives hauling a train.
 

crs1026

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
8,029
Reaction score
13,533
I don’t understand why there so much concern about the lack of EMU. This is only the beginning of a transition for GO. There’s nothing wrong with running electric locomotives with the current Bilevels. Plenty of countries run commuter services with electric hauled locomotives (eg.SNCF, SBB etc.). I think concerns over acceleration are also overblown. Worst case scenario would be GO having two locomotives hauling a train.

Amen. Dead spot on. Drives me crazy how any discussion about GO’s future becomes a fantasy discussion about rolling stock. The equipment is one of the least mission critical aspects of the whole program. The rider and the taxpayer simply don’t care. Even the business doesn’t dwell on the fleet as much as the UT observers do. And fleet decisions are usually made with an eye to additional variables that the discussion here doesn’t necessarily include in the discussion. Life cycle strategy and cost being two major factors.
(The biggest pressing concern for me is - what happens to the workers and shops in Thunder Bay? North Bay? )
Any brand or configuration that reliably arrives every 15 minutes or better with high modal share is a good one, IMHO.

- Paul
 
Last edited:

EnviroTO

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,552
Reaction score
1,626
GO station going to be built at the Caledonia LRT station on the crosstown, not a GO station in Caledonia, Ontario, which is very, very far from the Barrie GO line and doesn't really even have a useful rail line which could even be used for GO service.
When is that going to be built?
 

Top