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drum118

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Electrification UPX was to be done by 2019 as part of agreement with the Weston group and the MP at an ML BOD meeting along with converting the DMU to EMU at a cost of a million per car.

It would be a waste of money to convert the DMU to EMU.

The big mistake from day one was not having an T connect from the KW line to the airport to allow service to the airport from both direction.
 

Allandale25

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A very brief updated via the Planning and Development Quarterly Report on the September 8th Metrolinx board meeting agenda.

On July 27, Metrolinx undertook a readiness review for the OnCorr Program (Gateway A) to confirm that ONxpress and the internal delivery team has achieved a sufficient level of preparedness to develop work package bundles and operating and maintenance target operating models. Early Works packages, Due Diligence work plans, and design teams have begun to form. GO Expansion sponsors have focused on supporting the strategic train service planning work to verify areas of the infrastructure configuration plans with high confidence where design teams should begin detailed work and determine areas that need further verification. This establishes a pathway to control development of the infrastructure configuration plans towards finalization in October and establishing the final Train Service Plans and PRIME targets in 2023.
 

SkylineHorizon

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Regarding headways: Be careful what you wish for regarding very short headways. If your line only has a single track per direction (Barrie, Stouffville, LSE following introduction of line-based running) and your local service is very frequent, you can't have any express services. I for one don't want to be making every station stop en route from Barrie to Toronto.
But plenty of people already are fine with it even with the current 2 hour long trip to Barrie and Electrification with cut down that travel time.
i mean...how long is the average streetlight?
also if the schedule is synced enough, they could probaly get the timings down to get the trains to pass at the exact same time to lower the frequency of the gates.

like when each grade separation is $100 million the value goes way down

this is in defence of cancelling the scarborough grade separation and the one in etobicoke
That's impossible, not without slowing trains and automation. You might be able to sync a couple crossing with little change but the only way to sync them all up would be to control train speeds likely requiring many situations where trains are operating at far lower speeds then they otherwise would normal do just to so you can time a crossing right rather than operating at full speed and that's self defeating. Its better and more efficient to simply eliminate the crossing all together which coffers the additonal benefit of eliminating any chance of grade crossing accidents. Many of the worse grade crossings in Canada are in the gta/within the GO transit network and more frequent trains will only make these crossings all the more dangerous;
A lot of times the speeds are slow because of track geometry, not because of train's top speed limits. That won't change with electrification. Does faster acceleration alone account for that much time savings? (I don't believe in shorter dwell times theory if we are still running DDs)
Yes at least on the Lakeshore and other straight line corridors. Richmond Hill/Stouffville not so much due to their poor geometry. Diesel locos are dinosaurs vs electric ones when it comes to acceleration, also shorter trains will make just as much of an impact as im sure people undoubtedly noticed during the pandemic.
In 2000, it took 42 mins for the train to go from Union to Bronte, that number is 46 mins today:
Also has as much to do with schedule padding as anything else. Padding makes the system more reliable to be sure but at the expensive of time. The 15 minute guarantee and the desire to not have to pay it out plus the governments need to continually pat themselves on the back about how great they are when it comes to on time performance doesn't help matters either.
it's more for the future

they could set themselves up to massively expand the station count but are choosing not to. while it would have a higher up front cost (trains + stations), they'd be able to create very good local service on par with TTC subway on top of being a regional network.

like upwards of twice as many stops in urban areas with little to no reduction in service times due to much better acceleration.
Disagree. The difference between EMU and electric locos isn't half as much has the difference between 12 pack diesel hauled locos and 6 pack electric hual locos. The reduction in train size is just as important as the switch to electric. Switching to EMUs won't result in that dramatic of a reduction plus they can already meet the desired service levels without without them. I don't see any evidence that go corridors would require subway like capacities in the near future even with a few additional stops that's just wishful thinking on your part.
Interesting - for some reason I’d never put two and two together re: cost of operating GO. Unfortunately, doing all the legwork for electrification has also become more expensive at the same time, and, given the recent news of Windsor losing an LG Chem plant because of lack of generating capacity, I’m really curious how much capacity we need/have to power the trains.
Thats sounds more like a local power distribution issue in south west Ontario than general lack of power.
 

SkylineHorizon

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They should do what San Diego did, have to tracks run in-between the pylons;
24th_Street_station_2019.jpg

It's like Hydro One doesn't realize there is actually more than one type of hydro electric plyons out there 🙄
 

reaperexpress

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Thanks for sharing it, good to know they act a bit proactively! Hmmm, how about Union? I assume the new shed is ready?
The current shed is not ready, but they have designed an overhead rail system which will fit into the smoke ducts. The new platforms currently under construction will be electrification-ready.
 

innsertnamehere

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My understanding is that the two Lakeshore lines will use the new platforms as well, which will be a significant chunk of ridership for GO. Historically it's been, what, 60-70% of GO"s ridership on the two corridors? That'll likely drop once the other lines get more service, but still.
 

crs1026

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If the Oshawa facility is already ready for electrification, wouldn’t Lakeshore east be the first to be electrified?

It is not “ready for electrification”. It is simply “modifiable to accept electrification” - which some other maintenance buildings may not be.

It seems unlikely that the vendor would start electification with the route that has the greatest number of track-miles to wire up and the most complex service pattern.

If you assume (as has been hinted) that GO will start electrifying with an order of electric locomotives - the infrastructure that Amtrak built at its Wilmington shop to do running maintenance on its recent Siemens loco fleet is pretty modest and didn’t cost an arm and a leg. So it’s not essential that such an initial facility be built in the East. Willowbrook or some other location may be possible until there is a full sized electric fleet including trainsets of EMU’s that need running maintenance under wires.

I’m personally betting Bramalea or Barrie (Aurora) or Unionville, but I don’t have any magic information. The new vendor is only getting organized at this point so it’s all speculation.

- Paul
 

ARG1

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It is not “ready for electrification”. It is simply “modifiable to accept electrification” - which some other maintenance buildings may not be.

It seems unlikely that the vendor would start electification with the route that has the greatest number of track-miles to wire up and the most complex service pattern.

If you assume (as has been hinted) that GO will start electrifying with an order of electric locomotives - the infrastructure that Amtrak built at its Wilmington shop to do running maintenance on its recent Siemens loco fleet is pretty modest and didn’t cost an arm and a leg. So it’s not essential that such an initial facility be built in the East. Willowbrook or some other location may be possible until there is a full sized electric fleet including trainsets of EMU’s that need running maintenance under wires.

I’m personally betting Bramalea or Barrie (Aurora) or Unionville, but I don’t have any magic information. The new vendor is only getting organized at this point so it’s all speculation.

- Paul
Granted I'm no expert in the field, but I have always thought that Barrie would probably be one of the last lines to be electrified. GO is planning that huge layover facility over at Midland I believe, so that's a huge step for LSE electrification, and since you're electrifying the core Stouffville/LSE section, you're already a good chunk of the way of electrifying Stouffville. Since LSE is electrified, then it only makes sense to electrify LSW. Next, Kitchener is a high political priority due to promise of electric rail service from the construction of the UP Express (although I guess at this point that promise isn't worth much), leaving Barrie as the line with no real immediate need for electrification.
 

crs1026

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^The urgency in the need to electrify Barrie is the restriction placed in the EA approval for the Davenport Diamond, which places a limit on diesel trains on the new flyover to basically 1 train a day each hour each way. If ML is going to intensify service on that line, they either have to walk back that commitment or string wires. I don’t see that means service all the way to Barrie, which could remain hourly diesel with more intensive electric trains to Aurora or Newmarket.

- Paul
 

ssiguy2

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The lakeshore East/West should be top priority.. Full stop.

This is for 2 main reasons:

1} It has, by far, the highest ridership levels which means it also has, and probably always will, the highest frequencies. This means that it also has the biggest diesel bills. The faster they get this line electrified, the bigger the savings they will see in operational costs.
2} It has the highest concentration of stations of all lines. De/acceleration on lines with the most and closest stations is where the benefits of electrification in terms of speed really shows it strength.
 

robmausser

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The lakeshore East/West should be top priority.. Full stop.

This is for 2 main reasons:

1} It has, by far, the highest ridership levels which means it also has, and probably always will, the highest frequencies. This means that it also has the biggest diesel bills. The faster they get this line electrified, the bigger the savings they will see in operational costs.
2} It has the highest concentration of stations of all lines. De/acceleration on lines with the most and closest stations is where the benefits of electrification in terms of speed really shows it strength.

While you're right, I think that it will end up being Kitchener/Stouffville due to the mayors Smarttrack stations as well as the Georgetown South promise of electrification.
 

drum118

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If the Oshawa facility is already ready for electrification, wouldn’t Lakeshore east be the first to be electrified?
The whole complex has foundation to support the poles the will support the OS. There are backets over the doors where equipment is work on to support OS up to the doors.

The plan was to see the east end electrify first along with the UPX and expanded to other areas on a ranking system. That may change base on the new team looking after the system.

I expect to see LSW and LSE being electrify first since it carries the bulk of ridership. It will most likely be follow by UPX line and to Bramalea.

We have to sit back and wait to see what will happen as well when.
 

Jaye101

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The first line to be electrified will likely be Barrie, because of the as mentioned before limit place on the EA for diesel trains travelling over the Davenport Diamond, and because the vendor will likely not wanna start with LSW, LSE due to those projects being more complex. And lastly and most significantly, because it passes through the heart of Doug Ford's Conservative base.

Bramalea/Pearson would likely be second.
 

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