[ssiguy2]

ML doesn't have to relocate any stations. These suburban stations with massive parking garages also, for some unknown reason, have huge surface parking lots around them. Sell those lots to developers and bring in loads of cash to buy EMUs/battery and electrical infrastructure and get needed housing built and all the tax revenue that it will produce for their respective cities to boot.

I do agree that right now Torontonians are more concerned with accessibility of the service, frequency, and speed more than electrification itself but that doesn't change the fact that electrification was what Torontonians were promised and ML CHOOSE not to honour that agreement. Trying out some battery trains requires shockingly as I stated before, the UPX would be a great place to start. What's more, due to it's relatively short distance, the only battery recharging facility they would need would be at Pearson. They have NOTHING to lose because even if they decide battery is not a good option, they have still managed to electrify a station. I'm sure Alstom would salivate at the prospect of allowing them to borrow one of their battery trains for 6 months if they knew there could be a massive rolling stock purchase at the end of it. It would also allow them to demonstrate the potential of the technology in a NA and her colder climates. ML could easily set up the Pearson station for recharging within a couple months.

The ONLY reason they will not not try it out is because they have no intention of electrifying the system in the first place.

 

[rbt]

Is battery size really relevant to acceleration? EVs can accelerate pretty quickly-- do you think battery mass would be a serious impediment to acceleration? In an EMU with enough drive axles it shouldn't be an issue.

The amount of current you can pull is related to how many cells you can wire in parallel, and voltage is related to how many you can wire in series. To get high power, for fast acceleration, you want both voltage and amps to be fairly high and that requires a minimum number of cells.

For example, to pull 1600 Amps at 1200 Volts (2MW) using 18650 lithium cells (fairly common for large battery packs) for even a very short duration would require ~27,300 batteries. You simply can't get the performance with fewer even if you don't need 353.5kwh of storage.

 

[afransen]

The amount of current you can pull is related to how many cells you can wire in parallel, and voltage is related to how many you can wire in series. To get high power, for fast acceleration, you want both voltage and amps to be fairly high and that requires a minimum number of cells.

For example, to pull 1600 Amps at 1200 Volts (2MW) for even a very short duration would require ~666,000 AA batteries. You simply can't get there with fewer even if you don't need the energy.

Then the relationship would be the other way: a larger battery enables higher acceleration. Higher c rating also helps.

 

[rbt]

Then the relationship would be the other way: a larger battery enables higher acceleration. Higher c rating also helps.

A larger battery to some limit [you need to start adding axles] would enable higher acceleration.

Interestingly the most powerful locomotive, Shen 24, has 24 axles and provides 29MW of traction power.

 

[ssiguy2]

More battery train news...........

Apulia {a southern Italian region } has just order 7 Siemens battery trains for their suburban system. The trains are 37 meters long and can carry 164 passengers with 87 seated. They hope to have the system up and running by late 2026. Each train will have 2 catenary recharging ports.

Unfortunately, once again I'm not sure it it is a transferable technology for ML. Just as Dublin has the luck of the Irish and Wellington has it's electric current running upside-down, no doubt that ML will be concerned because they intend on running their electric trains on metal wires while there is absolutely no doubt that the wires on the Italian system will be pasta based.

 

[ssiguy2]

Vilnius has just gotten it's first delivery of 15 Stadler electric trains. 9 are standard to ply existing routes and 6 trains will be battery-electric is run on routes that are not currently electrified. The battery trains can be coupled for 3 car trains with a capacity of 660 passengers. Unfortunately, Stadler only makes trains that can run in post-communist countries and so, needless to say, they could not be used by GO.

 

[dowlingm]

Unfortunately, once again I'm not sure it it is a transferable technology for ML. Just as Dublin has the luck of the Irish

Funny you should say this as a battery issue has surfaced which may significantly delay EIS in Dublin

Expansion of Dart to Drogheda using battery-electric trains delayed until 2027

A plan to operate a more frequent train service under the Dart brand on Dublin’s northern line has been delayed by a year until 2027 due to a supply issue with the battery units for the new t…

irishcycle.com

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^ A one year delay? Torontonians would forfeit their first born to have any transit project only late by a year.

 

[EnviroTO]

^^^ A one year delay? Torontonians would forfeit their first born to have any transit project only late by a year.

Toronto projects were only delayed by a year too... many times.

 

[Dan416]

Toronto projects were only delayed by a year too... many times.

In a row. On the same project.

 

[ssiguy2]

Scot Rail has just announced they are putting out bids for new catenary and battery trains and hopes to have them employed on the system by 2030. They will be used for both suburban and regional trains. They did not provide the number of trains they wanted to purchase. Obviously the battery trains will be deployed on none or partial electrified routes. Clearly, by getting battery trains , they feel that catenary for those lines is too expensive. They hope to have the entire Scottish passenger railway service completely electrified by 2040. This means that more battery trains will certainly be ordered in the future.

It is, however, important to note that Scot Rail has clearly stated that these trains are unique to Scotland as they can only be run and maintained by people wearing kilts. Unfortunately, due to a critical lack of kilts in Toronto, ML simply cannot employ them on their routes.

 

[drum118]

Scot Rail has just announced they are putting out bids for new catenary and battery trains and hopes to have them employed on the system by 2030. They will be used for both suburban and regional trains. They did not provide the number of trains they wanted to purchase. Obviously the battery trains will be deployed on none or partial electrified routes. Clearly, by getting battery trains , they feel that catenary for those lines is too expensive. They hope to have the entire Scottish passenger railway service completely electrified by 2040. This means that more battery trains will certainly be ordered in the future.

It is, however, important to note that Scot Rail has clearly stated that these trains are unique to Scotland as they can only be run and maintained by people wearing kilts. Unfortunately, due to a critical lack of kilts in Toronto, ML simply cannot employ them on their routes.

There are a number of lines in Europe that will never be upgraded to electric as only a few trains use the line and the cost to do so using battery instead.

The samething can be done in NA especially for routes that only see a train a few times during the week that are not daily and keeps the RR that owns the track in the first place off their backs.

It is time thr RR's themselves look at electrifying some lines considering it been done in the past.

 

[ssiguy2]

There are a number of lines in Europe that will never be upgraded to electric as only a few trains use the line and the cost to do so using battery instead.

The samething can be done in NA especially for routes that only see a train a few times during the week that are not daily and keeps the RR that owns the track in the first place off their backs.

It is time thr RR's themselves look at electrifying some lines considering it been done in the past.

Unfortunately, CN/CP pull the strings in Ottawa and Ottawa has little interest or inclination to change the situation.. Our railway system is simply too vast to make any form of catenary cost effective. Batteries are also not option due to the distances and the downtime required to recharge the batteries. Neither catenary nor battery are financially viable for CN/CP which is why they are not interested. The big freight companies that own these tracks all have goals to be carbon neutral by 2050 and they rely on hydrogen to get them there. This is similar to air travel and very long distance passenger rail.

 

[ssiguy2]

Some good news and bad news on battery trains.

The good news is that BHP in Australia has just received their first battery locomotive which will be used for iron ore transportation and is beginning testing phases in the harsh conditions of the interior of Australia.

The bad news is that they will be charged via catenary. Unfortunately, being in Australia, this means the technology can't work in Toronto because, like Wellington, the electricity runs upside-down.

 

[chrisw]

So @ssiguy2 might be happy.

Reece Martin suggests that the USRC might not be electrified. Saving money from the train shed but also some bridges in the core. Battery trains.

This is his analysis of the recent Metrolinx board documents on Go Expansion.

Metrolinx Sheds Light on GO Corridor Transformations | UrbanToronto

Metrolinx has long been criticized for its opaqueness, particularly as it relates to plans around improvements to GO transit rail services, but as part of a recent series of updates, Metrolinx has released what may be the clearest outline of its plans for the core frequent GO services, and how...

urbantoronto.ca