[ssiguy2]

Easy - a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.



We don't really need the principle - we have a long history of trying to develop or adopting transit technologies that ended up being orphans, provided poor performance or worse:

Maglev
ICTS
Hybrid buses

Why should we even attempt to pick this one up for its' uncertain promise? We're wasting time and money.

AoD

ICTS {Vancouver SkyTrain} was NOT misguided. Vancouver's system is fast, very frequent, efficient, comfortable, and safe...................the hallmarks of a great transit system. The SRT failure has absolutely NOTHING to do with the technology and EVERYTHING to do with the scandalous failure of the TTC which has gone out of it's way to make the line as dysfunctional s possible in order to create the illusion that the technology is a failure.

 

[ssiguy2]

I just for the life of me do not understand why the TTC is so incredibly averse to trying alternative technologies. Japan and China have monorails, Korea SkyTrain and monorails for mass transit, Germany maglev, tram-trains, and now the German's, French, and British are looking at Hyrail. Toronto should kill to have a transit system like the ones found in China, Japan, S.Korea, Germany, the UK, and France.

What's the big deal? Get Alstom to lend a train and test it and find out if it is a viable alternative or not. If it is a lemon then no harm done and if it is a success it could save QP billions and years off of RER implementation and create a viable industry for Hyrail in Ontario serving future system in NA.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I just for the life of me do not understand why the TTC is so incredibly averse to trying alternative technologies. Japan and China have monorails, Korea SkyTrain and monorails for mass transit, Germany maglev, tram-trains, and now the German's, French, and British are looking at Hyrail. Toronto should kill to have a transit system like the ones found in China, Japan, S.Korea, Germany, the UK, and France.

What's the big deal? Get Alstom to lend a train and test it and find out if it is a viable alternative or not. If it is a lemon then no harm done and if it is a success it could save QP billions and years off of RER implementation and create a viable industry for Hyrail in Ontario serving future system in NA.

They are also countries who have already mastered the basic to one extent or another. It's like people who can't walk trying to jump.

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

Of course the idea of RER development also brings up another issue.............it's none of Toronto's business.

Toronto {nor any areas of the GTAH} are paying one plug nickel towards RER so they are not in a position of making demands of QP. If Toronto really wanted electrification and soon it could put it's money where it's mouth is and provide some funds so the system gets up and running quicker but the idea of Toronto paying for it's own infrastructure needs is heresy. Despite Toronto's "poor me" attitude they should be very thankful for the funds they are getting for transit. No other jurisdiction on this planet gets monstrous amounts of funds for transit expansion without contributing one penny.

The only thing Torontonians can legitimately complain about is noise and pollution of the diesel trains but HyRail is both very quiet and completely none polluting so there goes that excuse. The long suffering commuters of Toronto should be thanking their lucky stars that RER is a Metrolinx/QP initiative or it would never get built even if Toronto was given the money.

 

[smallspy]

ICTS {Vancouver SkyTrain} was NOT misguided. Vancouver's system is fast, very frequent, efficient, comfortable, and safe...................the hallmarks of a great transit system. The SRT failure has absolutely NOTHING to do with the technology and EVERYTHING to do with the scandalous failure of the TTC which has gone out of it's way to make the line as dysfunctional s possible in order to create the illusion that the technology is a failure.

That's a pretty nice revisiting of history that you're doing there.

ICTS started out as a very, very buggy system. It was a bit too close to "bleeding edge" when it was launched, although, full marks, Vancouver has absolutely made the best of it. In spite of all of the teething problems thought, it works in certain locations where the weather agrees with it. Toronto happens to be in a climate where it does not.

In hindsight, on one hand it was a good thing that Hamilton didn't end up signing up for the ICTS, although they're still suffering from their lack of rapid transit.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Of course the idea of RER development also brings up another issue.............it's none of Toronto's business.

Toronto {nor any areas of the GTAH} are paying one plug nickel towards RER so they are not in a position of making demands of QP. If Toronto really wanted electrification and soon it could put it's money where it's mouth is and provide some funds so the system gets up and running quicker but the idea of Toronto paying for it's own infrastructure needs is heresy. Despite Toronto's "poor me" attitude they should be very thankful for the funds they are getting for transit. No other jurisdiction on this planet gets monstrous amounts of funds for transit expansion without contributing one penny.

The only thing Torontonians can legitimately complain about is noise and pollution of the diesel trains but HyRail is both very quiet and completely none polluting so there goes that excuse. The long suffering commuters of Toronto should be thanking their lucky stars that RER is a Metrolinx/QP initiative or it would never get built even if Toronto was given the money.

Because Torontonians a) don't pay provincial taxes and b) aren't the ones affected by provincial policies.

Honestly, if you want to go down that road, surely this issue is even less of a business for someone hailing from BC where there is barely a commuter rail system to speak of.

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

^ and other cities across the planet don't pay sales & income taxes?

Metrolinx/GO own all the track and pays for all the operational costs so technically they can do as they damn well please. Obviously that is not ideal but if they want to give HyRail a go then who is Toronto to stop them?

I just don't understand this aversion to trying the technology. Take a train and see how it works it would cost nearly nothing and could be up and running within 3 months of getting the train. If it doesn't work well then no harm done and if it does then it could save QP billions in electrification as well as all the time to implement it. If the Tories don't want electrification then it is the ideal replacement if everything is OK with the initial trial. What's the problem?

If you are going to spend billions on a system why not spend a little amount to make sure you are getting the most bang for the buck? Also isn't it better to make informed decisions based on facts rather than reactionary views based on the fear of the unknown or conversely not ones based on media hype?

If it is a new technology that maybe the one of the future then it would be scandalous and a complete affront to the tax payers and long suffering Toronto commuters not to try it when it would cost next to nothing to try it out. I can't for the life of me why you wouldn't want to try it out so you can make an informed decision and not one based on educated guesses.

 

[TransitBart]

News Release

Ontario Taking Major Step Forward to Electrify the GO Rail Network
June 15, 2017

Electrification Will Support Faster and More Frequent Service for Commuters and Families
Ontario is transforming how people get around in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area and taking a major step forward to electrify the GO rail network, which will support faster and more frequent service for commuters and families across the region.

Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca visited the GO Transit Willowbrook Facility today to provide an update on Ontario's work to implement GO Regional Express Rail (RER) and announce that the province has commenced the GO Rail Network Electrification Transit Project Assessment Process. The process builds on public consultations held last year and will assess the environmental impacts of converting core segments of the GO rail network, including the UP Express, from diesel to electric. It is a critical step towards enabling the province to begin the procurement process to select a vendor to electrify the system.

In tandem with the assessment process, Ontario is also undertaking a feasibility study on the use of hydrogen fuel cells as an alternative technology for electrifying GO rail service and the UP Express. Recent advances in the use of hydrogen fuel cells to power electric trains in other jurisdictions makes it important that Ontario consider this clean electric technology as an alternative to conventional overhead wires. As part of the study, this fall the province will bring together industry leaders in fuel cell technology for a symposium to explore the potential application of hydrogen fuel cell technology to electrify the GO rail network.

Ontario is undertaking a $21.3 billion transformation of the GO network, which is the largest commuter rail project in Canada. The investment will deliver faster and more frequent service, create thousands of jobs and improve people's quality of life. Ontario is on track to electrify and expand the rail network, and bring more two-way, all-day service to commuters and families by increasing the number of weekly trips from about 1,500 to nearly 6,000 by 2025.

Making transit faster, more convenient and more sustainable is part of our plan to create jobs, grow our economy and help people in their everyday lives.


QUICK FACTS

• The province has committed $13.5 billion to implement GO RER as part of a $21.3 billion transformation of the GO network from commuter transit to a regional rapid transit system. GO RER involves more than 500 separate projects across 40 municipalities.
• Improvements to over 30 GO stations are currently in procurement and planning work is underway with municipal partners on 12 new GO RER stations across the network.
• Portions of the work also support the integration of City of Toronto’s SmartTrack program with the broader GO RER program.
• Critical environmental assessment processes are also underway to expand corridors which will allow for improved service on the Lakeshore East line, Barrie line and at Union Station.
• Infrastructure improvements to support GO RER are supporting increased service levels across the GO rail network, such as the introduction of weekend service on the Barrie line and all-day service on the Stouffville line.
• The Notice of Commencement and Public Meetings for the GO Rail Network Electrification Transit Project Assessment Process was issued June 14, 2017.

Enough study. Enough diversion. This government may kill its own project with this unnecessary sideshow. Disappointing diversion of scarce resources. A bird in the hand...vs a romantic maybe sometime, maybe somewhere. Wow.

 

[crs1026]

If Ontario is somehow wedded to this idea (I personally don't see why - we never become a center of excellence from our desire to be leading edge, we just become an expensive proving ground which helps people from elsewhere get things right and market their version to the world, leaving us broke and with the crappy 1.0 version) the smart thing to do is to pick the longest lead time route to be electrified - they can't all be done at once - and aim to hydrogenise it. While meanwhile continuing at full speed on the lines that electrification needs the most.

It really feels like this was the 'sobriety moment' when Wynne/DD realised just how much the RER promise is going to cost .... and the money has pretty much run out. And, rather than face the music and cut back to whats affordable, and admit this, they find this Hail Mary fantasy solution and forge ahead in the hopes that this will save the day. Crap, even Dalton had the cajones to scale back Crosstown to Mount Dennis when the money got tight...... and he was a coward in most respects.

If this idea (which may be the right one, some day, but a decade or more from now) slows down progress on stringing wires by even one day, then it's proof of just how little conviction DD and Wynne have about our need for RER.

Politics and popularity - that's what drives transportation planning in the GTA.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

If Ontario is somehow wedded to this idea (I personally don't see why - we never become a center of excellence from our desire to be leading edge, we just become an expensive proving ground which helps people from elsewhere get things right and market their version to the world, leaving us broke and with the crappy 1.0 version) the smart thing to do is to pick the longest lead time route to be electrified - they can't all be done at once - and aim to hydrogenise it. While meanwhile continuing at full speed on the lines that electrification needs the most.

It really feels like this was the 'sobriety moment' when Wynne/DD realised just how much the RER promise is going to cost .... and the money has pretty much run out. And, rather than face the music and cut back to whats affordable, and admit this, they find this Hail Mary fantasy solution and forge ahead in the hopes that this will save the day. Crap, even Dalton had the cajones to scale back Crosstown to Mount Dennis when the money got tight...... and he was a coward in most respects.

If this idea (which may be the right one, some day, but a decade or more from now) slows down progress on stringing wires by even one day, then it's proof of just how little conviction DD and Wynne have about our need for RER.

Politics and popularity - that's what drives transportation planning in the GTA.

- Paul

Im sure the minister is either too smart to too dumb to come up with this hydrogen idea.... Who is in charge of advising him and generating this policy?! They ought to be fired or better...dragged out in the streets to tar and feather!

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Don't know if this has been covered off here (too lazy to look back) but just quoting from the ORCA Project thread:

took a few photos of the corridor today (below). As far as building over the tracks, would they be able to put concrete pillars between the existing tracks of the Bathurst yard, or need to bridge 4-6 tracks? It looks tight. Also if they can use fuel cell locomotives, will this reduce the needed space above the tracks, making it easier to lower the park development? I know people were upset when they learned that the yellow ped bridge had to be so high, but I don't know if it was because of signal visibility or future RER needs.

View attachment 112041 View attachment 112042 View attachment 112043 View attachment 112044 View attachment 112045 View attachment 112046 View attachment 112047 View attachment 112048 View attachment 112049 View attachment 112050 View attachment 112051

The American Railway Engineering and Maintenance‐of‐Way Association (AREMA) recommended clearance is about 7 metres, however, this does not accommodate the clearance required for CN/CP double-stacked freight. This pushes the minimum envelope to 8.something (my memory is failing me this morning). Even on Metrolinx-owned ROWs, this is applied. It makes sense for where local limited freight service is offered, but beyond that I didn't understand why. Perhaps it was a condition of sale.

That's why the Puente de Luz is so high. I can also tell you that there are a number of bridges that do not meet this height, and may require reconstruction for electrification. Details will likely emerge with the electrification TPAP.

 

[ssiguy2]

The Hyrail Alstom trains are roughly the size of the UPX ones so why not just get one on loan and put it to use on the UPX. An extra train will improve service and the comfort level can't be worse than the crates running on the line now. The people of Weston would be ecstatic. As far as RER electrification, that could have been nearly completed by now if Metrolinx would stop spending valuable time and money on parking garages.

What's the problem? Give it a try and if it doesn't work then no harm done.

 

[crs1026]

What's the problem? Give it a try and if it doesn't work then no harm done.

By all means, try it....just don't slow down stringing wires on the highest priority routes.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

What's the problem?

The Hyrail Alstom trains are roughly the size of the UPX ones so why not just get one on loan and put it to use on the UPX.

They're low platform vehicles. UPX is high. They're name "Hydrail". Hyrail is something else.

By all means, try it....just don't slow down stringing wires on the highest priority routes.

- Paul

Agreed. The Orangeville line would be a perfect place to try it, or a pair, since it is aimed at low platform use and if it fails, won't foul the line. The line is in very good shape with very little traffic. In case of vehicle failure, the present bus service would be maintained.

Hydrail 2017 | 27-28 June 2017 | Graz, Austria
International Hydrail Conference 2017
27-28 June 2017 | Graz, Austria

REGISTRATION NOW OPEN AT https://hydrail-conference-2017.org/shop/
Registration | Agenda | Conference Information | Transport & Lodging | About Graz
The 12th International Hydrail Conference: Building on the solid foundation of a tradition since 2005
Welcome!
We thank you for your interest in Hydrail and hope that you will participate in this 12th edition of the event series.

IHC's objective is to contribute to the change of regime in the rail sector by providing a forum where technology experts, vehicle and rail infrastructure managers, as well as media, policy makers and other stakeholders, come together to discuss ideas on hydrogen and rail transport From the systemic level up to concrete designs and transformations.

Today, about 12 years after the first conference, held in Charlotte, North Carolina (USA), we are on the next, important benchmark for the future. While enthusiastic experts have discussed the subject in the rather small circle by means of concepts and individual demonstrators, the last two years have shown an acceleration that is almost as dramatic as the rail transport sector. Now a small fleet of Hydrail trams is on the road in the Caribbean. In Germany the prototypes of a complete model range around the entire European approval test and the latest announcements from China and the rest of the world signal a potential market break.

Herbert Wancura
Chairperson

HYDROGEN RAIL NEWS UPDATES:

Alstom unveils its zero-emission train Coradia iLint at InnoTrans

BMVI STUDY EXAMINES THE ECONOMIC, LEGAL AND TECHNICAL PREREQUISITES FOR THE DEPLOYMENT OF FUEL CELL RAILCARS IN RAIL TRANSPORTATION




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7IHC at the University of Birmingham, U.K.
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21 June 2011 | Feature Article | www.railway-technology.com The hydrail concept promises cleaner rail travel in the future thanks to a new breed of hydrogen-powered train. With Japan, the US, China and the EU all having announced research into this relatively new technology, Rowan Watt-Pringle examines the potential for a lean, green new transport sector.
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https://hydrail.appstate.edu/

See:
http://www.railway-technology.com/f...n-powered-hydrail-into-the-spotlight-4928956/

 

[salsa]

Facepalm.