[muller877]

As long as Hydrail is only considered for Diesel-only corridors, I'm fine. However, the benefits in electricity cost savings (due to non-peak usage) are pretty much ******. Here's why:

If I am correct, at maximum efficiency, hydrail is about 30-50% efficient (quoted from earlier in this thread). Compare this to the 70-90% efficiency from a pantograph. Peak electricity costs are 13 cents, and off-peak electricity costs are 6.5 cents; half the cost. Hydrail is half as efficient as direct pantograph collection, so twice as much electricity is required to get the same amount of work through hydrogen as you would through pantograph collection. There are also unforeseen maintenance costs that are not known.

Language please [note edited above to remove]

Your comparison assumes that the peak price would not change with Electric Rail. This will increase the peak demand and with a fixed maximum output the price of electricity will increase. Putting it another way Ontario will have to build additional capacity due to the increased peak demand.

A new power plant that will be idle during non-peak times will cost a lot more than 13 cents.

A secondary point...the variability between peak and non-peak is mostly powered by Gas Plants. And Gas Plants do emit NOx. Less than gas...but still pollution. Off-peak will be using nuclear, hydro or other lesser-polluting plants than Gas Plants.

If you want to push all the buttons:
- put a hydrogen plant near a hydroelectric dam up north to reduce the transmission needs (and loss in power).
- creates jobs for the First Nations people
- ship via rail (at night) to minimize the amount of road usage. Hydrail powered trains of course!
- additional revenue to ONR to maintain/improve the tracks up North

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Trying to create an entirely new hydrogen infrastructure base sounds like a great way to introduce uncertainty and inefficiency in order to deal with a relatively simple issue of electrical demand.

AoD

 

[ssiguy2]

New just in from Germany. The Alstom Hydrail project is up and running after intensive testing and the city has put out a tender for 26 Hydrail trains for it`s commuter system, which at this point means Alstom but that will quickly change as Siemens and China`s CCRW are also going ahead with hydrogen as China recently opened it`s first hydrogen LRT line.

The German contract is for 26 train sets with a potential to expand the order. Clearly the German transport authorities and the public in general like what they see and are secure in it`s long-term viability as a environmental alternative to diesel which is both practical and efficient. There is now a video on Youtube of the first iLint Hydrail line in action...........very good acceleration and incredibly quiet.

Metrolinx shouldn`t be going gung-ho but very much should put in a small order or lease for a few trains to see them in action and make a more informed decision on Hydrail`s viability and getting a few for the UPX and ST routes would be a great place to start. By getting some trains a basic ST system could be up and running far faster than waiting for electrification and if Toronto decides it isn`t the best fit, by leasing the trains they could always sell them back and no harm done.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Theoretical counterpoint: What's the cost of selling our surplus electricity to neighbouring grids at a loss when green production exceeds consumption (i.e. windy days)? It seems that would be an excellent time to bank hydrogen. That makes sense when hydro is a 100% public utility, not sure how that works out in our present system though.

Interesting point, but if demand is to go up (with many more people moving into the province each day), a lot of that electricity will eventually be used during the off-peak times. It's also interesting to wonder what would happen if more people used electricity at night.

Language please [note edited above to remove]

Your comparison assumes that the peak price would not change with Electric Rail. This will increase the peak demand and with a fixed maximum output the price of electricity will increase. Putting it another way Ontario will have to build additional capacity due to the increased peak demand.

A new power plant that will be idle during non-peak times will cost a lot more than 13 cents.

A secondary point...the variability between peak and non-peak is mostly powered by Gas Plants. And Gas Plants do emit NOx. Less than gas...but still pollution. Off-peak will be using nuclear, hydro or other lesser-polluting plants than Gas Plants.

If you want to push all the buttons:
- put a hydrogen plant near a hydroelectric dam up north to reduce the transmission needs (and loss in power).
- creates jobs for the First Nations people
- ship via rail (at night) to minimize the amount of road usage. Hydrail powered trains of course!
- additional revenue to ONR to maintain/improve the tracks up North

Again, an interesting point. I'm not sure exactly how many EMUs would be running at once during peak hours, but we'll assume (6+16+10+24)*4 = 224 vehicles in use at once. Each will probably be using around 210 kW each on average, so 47 (~50) megawatts of extra power are required to power these trains. A small dam could cover these extra power requirements. However, I believe these are within the range of potential surplus the province has available during peak hours, so I doubt a new power plant would be necessary.

There are still pushes for green energy in this province. Besides, power generated by a large reactor vessel is going to be more efficient so that argument is kind of null.

And trains full of hydrogen fuel...that to me spells disaster.

 

[steveintoronto]

Putting it another way Ontario will have to build additional capacity due to the increased peak demand.

OK, I'm a tech, put that argument to me. I digress, not least due to ballast loading and built-in compensation.

If you are presenting an argument from the Hydrail Fan Club, feel free to link it. I love this stuff...it smacks of political sop, not engineering prowess.

 

[steveintoronto]

New just in from Germany. The Alstom Hydrail project is up and running after intensive testing and the city has put out a tender for 26 Hydrail trains for it`s commuter system, which at this point means Alstom but that will quickly change as Siemens and China`s CCRW are also going ahead with hydrogen as China recently opened it`s first hydrogen LRT line.

Whoa...so many assumptions. The order for the 26 trains was made months back. And it's *still* conditional.

Hydrogen fuel cell multiple-units ordered
23 Oct 2017

GERMANY: Niedersachsen transport authority LNVG has announced an order for Alstom to supply 14 hydrogen fuel cell multiple-units, with options for 33 more.

The initial batch of units is to be deployed on Weser-Elbe services between Cuxhaven, Bremerhaven, Bremervörde and Buxtehude.

The contract has been awarded to a consortium of Alstom and hydrogen supplier Linde through a negotiated procedure, because LNVG wishes to use fuel cell vehicles in preference to diesel units and believes Alstom is currently the only company in the world which can offer suitable rolling stock that is fully-developed for passenger use.

Alstom presented its prototype two-car Coradia iLint multiple-unit at InnoTrans in September 2016, and test running began in April. The prototype is expected to begin carrying passengers in early 2018. The unit has been developed as part of the German national hydrogen and fuel cell technology programme, and incorporates roof-mounted fuel cells from Hydrogenics, Xperion storage tank, Akasol underfloor batteries. and Selectron control systems.

The consortium of Alstom and Linde will be responsible for the supply, maintenance and fuelling of the LNVG units throughout their life, as patented technology is involved.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ydrogen-fuel-cell-multiple-units-ordered.html

Germany has a federally provided Hydrogen supply program. It in itself is probationary.

Post your reference, and I'll respond accordingly.

 

[nfitz]

The Metro isn't capable of moving on battery power either, at least not the MR63s or MR73s. I don't know enough about the Azurs to know whether they have an onboard propulsion battery.

How do they always manage, except occasionally in some very long sections, manage to get the train uphill to the next station, after the power goes down, everything goes black for a few seconds, and then the train limps forward? You don't near about large-scale evacuations, like you do in Vancouver. Just the occasional horror story when the train has failed to get to the platform. Come to think of it, why don't we hear stories like this in Toronto? They can't possibly coast that far ... half the time, they not got signal clearance ... and then with the signals go down ...

I suspect that what the specs called for was battery power that kept the various sub-systems active long enough to make it to the next station. That's how the Toronto subway cars, and as far as I can tell most others built around that time, were configured.

Maybe - that might explain the lights going out for about 3-4 seconds. Seems odd that it could coast far uphill. What happens on the northbound Yonge line? They seem to panic in Toronto every time the signals go out, instead of continuing to run slowly using stop on sight rules (which I assume have a much better name than that).

 

[dowlingm]

There is an ongoing assumption that the electricity surplus we have now will always be available for hydrogen production. If we end up running gas plants during the night even a few days a year to turn methane into hydrogen (because Enbridge persuades government to use reforming over electrolysis and private vehicle and municipal bus recharging soaks up the night surplus) we will be quite the laughing stock.

A notion upthread that we will flood more of Northern Ontario as a supposed way to create First Nations employment opportunities seems to me to be not keeping abreast of the opposition of many of those communities of dams (as in BC and James Bay) even if the notion of producing and shipping hydrogen in huge quantities year round and shipping it down to Toronto was anything other than a logistic nightmare.

 

[smallspy]

How do they always manage, except occasionally in some very long sections, manage to get the train uphill to the next station, after the power goes down, everything goes black for a few seconds, and then the train limps forward? You don't near about large-scale evacuations, like you do in Vancouver. Just the occasional horror story when the train has failed to get to the platform. Come to think of it, why don't we hear stories like this in Toronto? They can't possibly coast that far ... half the time, they not got signal clearance ... and then with the signals go down ...

I don't know....momentum? I honestly don't have an answer for you in the Montréal situation as I've never been on one of their trains when the power goes out. In Toronto, because of the lower frictional losses of steel wheels on steel rails a powerless train can coast a surprisingly long distance, and even uphills to a degree provided that the train was travelling fast enough when the power went out.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[ssiguy2]

If you are presenting an argument from the Hydrail Fan Club, feel free to link it. I love this stuff...it smacks of political sop, not engineering prowess.

I hope you are not referring to me as part of the `Hydrail Fan Club` as I am most certainly not. That however does not mean that I am afraid of new technologies nor do I agree with this concept that what was good for the 20th century is also the best option for the 21st. I have NEVER said that Metrolinx should go gung-ho on Hydrail but rather have always stated that whatever decision is made by Metrolinx should be done based on `best practices` and that means making an informed decision and not one based on myopic views of only considering current technology nor one based on hype of embracing new ones for the sole purpose of being the first ones on the block.

This is why I have always stated that Metrolinx should get some loaners from Alstom using it`s current Hydrail trains and ply them on a few routes that are in desperate need of higher frequencies which will be even more true if GO fares drop to $3 as planned. The obvious choices is the ST/UPX route. If they work well then Toronto can make an informed decision on it`s long-term viability and not one based on blind ideology from either side and if they don`t work out then, no harm done. When spending $13 billion on a RER system, spending a couple million to make sure they make the best decision seems like money well spent and one could even say that when spending such huge sums, to not look at potential alternatives is financially irresponsible.

 

[lenaitch]

There is an ongoing assumption that the electricity surplus we have now will always be available for hydrogen production. If we end up running gas plants during the night even a few days a year to turn methane into hydrogen (because Enbridge persuades government to use reforming over electrolysis and private vehicle and municipal bus recharging soaks up the night surplus) we will be quite the laughing stock.

A notion upthread that we will flood more of Northern Ontario as a supposed way to create First Nations employment opportunities seems to me to be not keeping abreast of the opposition of many of those communities of dams (as in BC and James Bay) even if the notion of producing and shipping hydrogen in huge quantities year round and shipping it down to Toronto was anything other than a logistic nightmare.

In addition, other than enlarging some existing headponds, Ontario lacks the both the topography or hydrology to make any large scale energy improvements. We lack the elevation of Quebec or the large prairie-draining rivers of Manitoba.

 

[muller877]

In addition, other than enlarging some existing headponds, Ontario lacks the both the topography or hydrology to make any large scale energy improvements. We lack the elevation of Quebec or the large prairie-draining rivers of Manitoba.

Actually the Ring of Fire has huge potential for hydroelectric power generation. I am hoping a similar agreement with locals similar to Quebec where the economic growth has really helped the education and social aspects of all communities nearby (both native and non-native)

 

[pman]

Actually the Ring of Fire has huge potential for hydroelectric power generation. I am hoping a similar agreement with locals similar to Quebec where the economic growth has really helped the education and social aspects of all communities nearby (both native and non-native)

Quebec built James Bay in the seventies. Different province and different time. The likelihood of any greenfield resource development in Canada on so-called traditional lands is about zero. But not to despair on the development front. What will happen is that the province has announced the connection to the grid of 25,000 aboriginals living in an area the size of France. At a cost of $80,000 per person. Paid for by the rest of us.

 

[steveintoronto]

I hope you are not referring to me as part of the `Hydrail Fan Club` as I am most certainly not.

I was referring to some of Muller's points. He makes good ones, but they don't make the case for Hydrail being a better way of utilizing low demand times for affordable production.

Almost all arguments for the use of H, let alone Hydrail, on a wide scale basis is flawed. And complicated. The bottom line of using Germany and France as examples on 'Hydrail's advantage' is not being claimed by either of those nations except for a national program in Germany, which is political in nature, and for 'off grid' (off catenary) cases where the costs of providing overhead can't satisfy a business case.

What Ontario's position boils down to is the same as the UK's: It's to avoid having to face-up to the costs of promised electrification infrastructure. Germany and France both (along with the rest of the EU) haven't slowed, let alone stopped catenary electrification of rail.

Railway electrification market remains buoyant
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/5067/railway-electrification-market-remains-buoyant/

 

[M636RF]

There is an ongoing assumption that the electricity surplus we have now will always be available for hydrogen production. If we end up running gas plants during the night even a few days a year to turn methane into hydrogen (because Enbridge persuades government to use reforming over electrolysis and private vehicle and municipal bus recharging soaks up the night surplus) we will be quite the laughing stock.

A notion upthread that we will flood more of Northern Ontario as a supposed way to create First Nations employment opportunities seems to me to be not keeping abreast of the opposition of many of those communities of dams (as in BC and James Bay) even if the notion of producing and shipping hydrogen in huge quantities year round and shipping it down to Toronto was anything other than a logistic nightmare.

Yes that is an interesting question. Electrolysis does require quite a bit of electricity (I'm not sure how it compares to catenary), and while there may be a surplus of cheap electricity at night right now, things could change in the future. What I often wonder about is whether future increases in electric vehicle usage might impact the price and availability of electricity. This isn't as much of a concern for Ontario as it is for European countries like Britain and France which want to ban fossil fuel powered road vehicles (and in the UK's case trains as well).