[robmausser]

The last GO Woodbridge/Bolton study I saw had the line routed North on the Newmarket line, West on the CN Halton sub and then back North on the CP Macteir sub that runs through Woodbridge/Bolton. Rather than the more logical GTS/Weston sub connection to CP Macteir.

I think this is absurd since it misses obvious opportunities for stations at Sheppard W (Possible connection to a Sheppard W LRT/BRT) and Finch W (Connection to Finch LRT) and even a commuter station near the 401. And the North West of Toronto is relatively underserved by transit to begin with.

I know the GTS/Weston corridor is quite busy but it's also the widest ROW in the region and I don't see why a 4 (or maybe 5) track ROW couldn't accommodate Via, UPX, GO Kitchener, CP and a GO Bolton service.

The 2010 study looked at routing via CN south of the Halton Sub as an alternative. For the reasons you suggest, it didn't rank favourably. But that's what studies do, consider options.

The only issue with a connection to the Kitchener line somewhere around Weston - Mount Dennis is, there would have to be be crossover movements as trains enter/exit the Kitchener line. This is an added complexity that could affect both express and local services. Not saying it isn't possible, but we don't know how GO intends to run things once the fourth track is built.

If the operating plan would require Bolton trains to cross over in front of express or even local trains, it's a problem, even though the 4-track line has loads of capacity. Crossover movements are the bane of high capacity multi track operations.

- Paul

The advantage to what I posted is that it never touches the Kitchener Line. There are separate CP tracks that connect from the route to Montreal through midtown to the route that goes to Bolton, that have nothing to do with the existing Metrolinx tracks.

The service would dump people off into Dupont subway station who want to continue downtown.

 

[robmausser]

Wishful thinking on metrlo

^ I remember seeing this map when it was published and noting this small mistake where these tracks don't exist.

View attachment 266124

Wishful thinking on Metrolinxs part haha

 

[gweed123]

The advantage to what I posted is that it never touches the Kitchener Line. There are separate CP tracks that connect from the route to Montreal through midtown to the route that goes to Bolton, that have nothing to do with the existing Metrolinx tracks.

The service would dump people off into Dupont subway station who want to continue downtown.

I actually envision the Bolton service terminating at Mount Dennis instead. That way it's not contingent on the Midtown Line being freed up, and it would operate completely independently of any Metrolinx-owned tracks. With Mount Dennis being a UPX and future RER station, it would be a pretty painless transfer in order to get to Union. There would also be the ECLRT connection if you're bound for Midtown.

 

[JasonParis]

Interesting. Such an arrangement is common elsewhere, but it seems odd in Toronto where we expect everything GO on rails to go to Union. But it could work for sure.

 

[crs1026]

I actually envision the Bolton service terminating at Mount Dennis instead. That way it's not contingent on the Midtown Line being freed up, and it would operate completely independently of any Metrolinx-owned tracks. With Mount Dennis being a UPX and future RER station, it would be a pretty painless transfer in order to get to Union. There would also be the ECLRT connection if you're bound for Midtown.

There would still need to be provision for layover and servicing. If one is only talking 2-3 peak trains, a long Henry-style layover siding at Mount Dennis might suffice. Equipment moves could be held until traffic permits. Weighing the cost of a connecting track versus a layover yard, though, I'd argue for bringing the trains to Dupont and laying over at North Toronto, with a new track on the North Toronto line....not that much track, and the roadbed is already there. Assuming CP can see their way to it.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

Interesting. Such an arrangement is common elsewhere, but it seems odd in Toronto where we expect everything GO on rails to go to Union. But it could work for sure.

For what it's worth, I'd like to see a similar arrangement with the Niagara service (terminating at either Aldershot or Burlington), and the Bowmanville extension (terminating at either Oshawa or Whitby, depending on where that line would join the LSE corridor).

I think the system is so Union-centric now because most of the lines are running at pretty low frequencies, so those transfers become a burden. If you're running the main lines at 10-15 min frequencies (or even less during peaks), then it becomes much easier.

It also makes scheduling easier. I'm thinking specifically on routes where they're sharing with freight or there's an obstacle like the Welland Canal which can make scheduling kind of a hit or miss. If those trains are going all the way into Union, then a late train from those smaller branches screws up the timing for everything. If they're operating as independent lines, the scheduling on the core segments of the network are unaffected.

There would still need to be provision for layover and servicing. If one is only talking 2-3 peak trains, a long Henry-style layover siding at Mount Dennis might suffice. Equipment moves could be held until traffic permits. Weighing the cost of a connecting track versus a layover yard, though, I'd argue for bringing the trains to Dupont and laying over at North Toronto, with a new track on the North Toronto line....not that much track, and the roadbed is already there. Assuming CP can see their way to it.

- Paul

Yeah I envision it looking something like what exists at West Harbour, where GO has their own layover track inside the station, with freight tracks outside of the station area. Though that track should re-connect with the freight track beyond the station (to avoid the maneuvers required at West Harbour for Niagara trains).

 

[anb]

Interesting. Such an arrangement is common elsewhere, but it seems odd in Toronto where we expect everything GO on rails to go to Union. But it could work for sure.

I think we wouldn’t see a go on any rail terminating anywhere other than union, until the 407 transitway gets converted into an lrt

 

[robmausser]

Interesting. Such an arrangement is common elsewhere, but it seems odd in Toronto where we expect everything GO on rails to go to Union. But it could work for sure.

I think in the future we will see both North Toronto Station reopening (contingent on CP reroute through York Sub) as well as the Bathurst North station as alternatives to Union. Theres simply a point where Union wont be able to take anymore traffic.

as per

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20111123/November%2023%202011_Presentation_Union%20Station%202031%20and%20Related%20Planning%20Studies%20-%20FINAL%20(DS).pdf

Id envision Milton/Bolton/Seatongoing to Toronto North station (and even potentially VIA HFR) Barrie and Kitchener to Bathurst North, and Stouffville/Lakeshore East/West to Union.

 

[NY99]

Theres simply a point where Union wont be able to take anymore traffic.

I don’t this will be for a WHILE though

If I recall correctly, Metrolinx has projected that the Union platform widening project, in conjunction with the almost-complete revitalization and a new southern concourse, will create enough new capacity to accommodate demand for the rest of the 21st century

whether this will hold up or not I couldn’t tell you, but needless to say a “Union Relief Station” isn’t a pressing issue in the short-to-medium term

 

[mickael]

I think in the future we will see both North Toronto Station reopening (contingent on CP reroute through York Sub) as well as the Bathurst North station as alternatives to Union. Theres simply a point where Union wont be able to take anymore traffic.

View attachment 266412

View attachment 266411

as per

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20111123/November%2023%202011_Presentation_Union%20Station%202031%20and%20Related%20Planning%20Studies%20-%20FINAL%20(DS).pdf

Id envision Milton/Bolton/Seatongoing to Toronto North station (and even potentially VIA HFR) Barrie and Kitchener to Bathurst North, and Stouffville/Lakeshore East/West to Union.

I've dreamt about the midtown line opening for years. Toronto North has been an LCBO for longer than it was an operational station, just a fun fact I learned while researching the idea.

 

[crs1026]

^ Just speculating, but to me the North Toronto terminus has as many plus’s as minuses in the equation, especially if Bolton is envisioned as mainly a peak period line. Its greatest appeal is actually Dupont rather than North Toronto.

If one assumes that peak period passengers are destined for the central business area, but not necessarily walking from Union, Transfer to Line 1 via Dupont is no more of a connecting subway ride than from Union. Bypassing Strachan/John St and missing the crowded walk to the Union Line 1 platform might actually shave a couple minutes off the trip.

North Toronto is not an attractive place to board Line 1 - it’s full south of St Clair, (we need a Relief Line or something, don’t we?)

On the other hand, if Bolton were to be added to the RER network as a 2WAD, non-really-peak Regional trip enabler, then it ought to run to the Union hub.... but all the peak arguments about congestion and last-mile transfer to the business district no longer apply. In that case. It would be a question of whether some sort of flyover/under connection to the Weston Sub around Mount Dennis was worth it, or whether to require transfer at Mt Dennis or Weston. (Oh, those wonderful British small town stub branches with their DMU’s and transfer at the main line.....Princeton Jct here we come!)

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

I've always envisioned the midtown corridor as a future corridor with a modest network of peak-period diesel services to free up capacity at Union. As others have mentioned, this would be a very long-term and low-priority concept. Summerhill (North Toronto) would be similar to the secondary terminals in some other major networks, like Long Island City for the Long Island Rail Road, or Camden for the Baltimore end of the Maryland Area Regional Commuter.

As I showed earlier, the Midtown corridor is wide enough for 4 tracks, even though CP only currently has 2. So a GO corridor there could be built regardless of a freight bypass.

^ Just speculating, but to me the North Toronto terminus has as many plus’s as minuses in the equation, especially if Bolton is envisioned as mainly a peak period line. Its greatest appeal is actually Dupont rather than North Toronto.

If one assumes that peak period passengers are destined for the central business area, but not necessarily walking from Union, Transfer to Line 1 via Dupont is no more of a connecting subway ride than from Union. Bypassing Strachan/John St and missing the crowded walk to the Union Line 1 platform might actually shave a couple minutes off the trip.

North Toronto is not an attractive place to board Line 1 - it’s full south of St Clair, (we need a Relief Line or something, don’t we?)

For me, the primary attractiveness of North Toronto is not to serve the CBD, but rather to serve the major employment clusters at St. Clair, Davisville, Midtown and North York Centre. The midtown line would save a huge amount of time compared to heading down to Union and back up on the subway.

Causing overcrowding on the Yonge Line south of Summerhill is certainly a huge risk, so a midtown GO service would certainly need to wait until the relief line reaches at least Eglinton. Additionally, Summerhill should be in a separate fare zone from Dupont, to create a financial incentive for people headed to the CBD to take the University Line if at all practical for them.

On the other hand, if Bolton were to be added to the RER network as a 2WAD, non-really-peak Regional trip enabler, then it ought to run to the Union hub.... but all the peak arguments about congestion and last-mile transfer to the business district no longer apply. In that case. It would be a question of whether some sort of flyover/under connection to the Weston Sub around Mount Dennis was worth it, or whether to require transfer at Mt Dennis or Weston. (Oh, those wonderful British small town stub branches with their DMU’s and transfer at the main line.....Princeton Jct here we come!)

I find it hard to imagine the Bolton line as anything more than a peak-only park-and-ride commuter service. The areas it serves are among the lowest density and most car-oriented in the GTA and there are no off-peak destinations along the line other than the town centre of Woodbridge. And I don't imagine anyone taking a train to go shopping in Woodbridge.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

My inclination for dealing with the Yonge line overloading a Summerhill station would be liable to cause has always included a Bay/Davenport streetcar (possibly extended west on Dupont eventually, probably as far as Dundas while creating an independent Annette bus). Bay would become a pretty powerful service acting as good relief to the subways at Bloor, a northern distributor for Crosstown and a southern distributor for the waterfront lines.

 

[Allandale25]

Cross-post. From the CIBC Square thread it looks like the screens for the new GO bus terminal have been activated.

CIBC SQUARE | 241.39m | 50s | Hines | WilkinsonEyre

August 25

urbantoronto.ca

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I think the Midtown Corridor needs to be thought about more as a way to enable greater coverage of commuter/travel options as opposed to a new hub or mainline.

Dumping people onto Dupont and Summerhill far away from their destination in the CBD, onto trains that are already packed (pre-covid) at Lawrence, doesn't seem like the right solution. This is more for that 1 person in 15 who works at Yonge & St Clair/Eglinton rather than downtown, and begins their commute at say Cooksville.