[reaperexpress]

As far as GO for getting to Toronto however, it's a no-go. It would be even slower and more unreliable than the current VIA service and that's saying something. No one in their right mind would take GO to get to Union. Hell, even going to Pearson would be slower and vastly less reliable than the dedicated London to Pearson bus service that is already operating.

Nobody is suggesting that it's a service for people commuting to downtown Toronto. I think we also agree that it would be ridiculous to introduce without upgrading the line speeds west of Kitchener. Once that is done, the north mainline would have approximately the same travel time as the south mainline.

What's more the Kitchener route is 20km longer than the Aldershot route.

No it's not. It's 195 km via Kitchener, or 185 km via Aldershot.

 

[smallspy]

According to my ED contacts, they've been having a lot of trouble securing materials too. Just because Metrolinx gives them a track access doesn't mean supply chain won't be an issue, especially with the Metrolinx specs.

That does not line up with what my contacts within the industry and within Metrolinx have been telling me.

Materials sourcing has been an issue with other projects, but not with this one it seems. Especially since Metrolinx has done much of the preliminary sourcing and staging of much of the materials long before the current construction firms got involved.

Dan

 

[smallspy]

There actually is a pocket track at Burlington on the north side of the station, but it is currently disused and has been disconnected from the mainline. It was used for turnbacks back when Burlington was the western terminus of off-peak service.
View attachment 338425

Yes, part of the original mainline does still exist at Burlington Station.

And yes, there are plans afoot to connect it to the rest of the mainline tracks at the plant at Burlington East, a mile east of the station.

But none of that has been done yet, and won't be done in time for the schedule change this coming weekend.

Dan

 

[tsm1072]

GO creating hubs in London and Kitchener, with train service between them, would allow for much better transit throughout SWO.

The London hub could allow connections between:

• GO Train service to Kitchener (and Toronto, but it wouldn't be the best way to get to Toronto)
• VIA trains to:
  • Windsor
  • Sarnia
  • Toronto (and a GO transfer in Hamilton)
• GO Buses to:
  • Windsor
  • Sarnia
  • Port Stanley (via St. Thomas)
  • Goderich (via Exeter)

The Kitchener hub would have:

• GO Trains to:
  • London
  • Toronto
• LRT Service to the K/W and Cambridge area
• GO Buses to:
  • Hamilton
  • Brantford
  • Orangeville (via Fergus)

There are probably other connections that make sense. But this would really improve the ability to travel between towns and cities in SWO.

 

[Nomad_87]

GO creating hubs in London and Kitchener, with train service between them, would allow for much better transit throughout SWO.

The London hub could allow connections between:

• GO Train service to Kitchener (and Toronto, but it wouldn't be the best way to get to Toronto)
• VIA trains to:
  • Windsor
  • Sarnia
  • Toronto (and a GO transfer in Hamilton)
• GO Buses to:
  • Windsor
  • Sarnia
  • Port Stanley (via St. Thomas)
  • Goderich (via Exeter)

The Kitchener hub would have:

• GO Trains to:
  • London
  • Toronto
• LRT Service to the K/W and Cambridge area
• GO Buses to:
  • Hamilton
  • Brantford
  • Orangeville (via Fergus)

There are probably other connections that make sense. But this would really improve the ability to travel between towns and cities in SWO.

I'd also maybe have a bus from Goderich to Stratford and buses to from London to Woodstock via Ingersoll

 

[ssiguy2]

^^ There already is a new micro-transit system connecting commuter cities to the City including Woodstock & Tilsonburg via Ingersol and Sarnia via Strathroy. Surprisingly the busiest potential route of St.Thomas to London doesn't exist but ST Transit is working on one to have regular bus service to White Oaks Mall on Wellington and then transferring on to the very busy and frequent Wellington Rd LT bus to downtown.

 

[ShonTron]

GO creating hubs in London and Kitchener, with train service between them, would allow for much better transit throughout SWO.

….

The Kitchener hub would have:

• GO Trains to:
  • London
  • Toronto
• LRT Service to the K/W and Cambridge area
• GO Buses to:
  • Hamilton
  • Brantford
  • Orangeville (via Fergus)

There are probably other connections that make sense. But this would really improve the ability to travel between towns and cities in SWO.

And, maybe, a bus via Highways 85 and 86 to Listowel, Wingham, Kincardine and even Port Elgin.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

My concerns are that VIA would:

a) No longer service K-W, a major market, impacting the financials for this route.

b) No longer maintain access to the route w/the greatest potential for ridership growth

c) GO has little experience or expertise offering the type of service that I think is necessary for 2hr + journeys.

d) That CN cannot spare the type of capacity VIA should want and need on the Dundas Sub.

This is the antithesis of how Amtrak is growing in the U.S. where it becomes the State-level provider of service for longer journeys; which is where I think VIA should be headed.

I don't understand why via couldn't provide a super express type service to the ggh and surrounding areas (Peterborough, London, niagara (?) etc).

Spending 2 + hrs on Go's bilevels is not comfortable!

I'm a tad late to this, but I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics and target market is here. The "NML" is a fancy name for what is Via's "milk route". If there were customers doing 2+ hours to get between Toronto and London, it was because there were no more seats available on the trips via Brantford et al.

Many other riders are going between KW/Guelph and London areas, and a lot, particularly on weekends, were students. I was one of them. Fridays and Sundays were packed with undergrads. This is a key demographic for the line because the prices were also reasonable, in the $20-30 range, outside of the "Toronto premium zone" that sees ticket prices jump way up after you hit Georgetown. This meant it was in a student budget, and hella more comfortable than a coach bus.

GO would serve this market well, and without freight conflicts, is a tolerable ride for a post-secondary student. Especially if you could do it for no more than the ~$20 (just over $16 for Presto) fare that it would cost you between KW and Toronto now on the GO.

Sorry, after a trip to/from London on VIA in June for the first time in decades, prefer GO seats over VIA. Hell, the GO Seats where better than the seats in a new VW Passat that I sat in for a month. Had no issues with seats to/from NF. Each to their own type of seats.

Via would stick the oldest cars in the fleet on this line, rickety lunch boxes with seats that were worn in and had no lumbar support. Combine that with really short bolted rail, and it was hell. Even for a young whipper snapper, it would kink your bank and make you deaf.

Some upgraded welded rail on GO bilevels with the latest seats would be floating on a cloud by comparison.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

H/T Vanishing Underground

 

[crs1026]

Just to illustrate how much better service on the KW-London line could be with a modest upgrade in the track speed, here are a pair of simplistic models of the current and potential timings. Consider them as "optimal" ie unpadded timings within the current signalling and track arrangement.

The first models timings given current track speeds. It gives a sense of why VIA is so slow on that line today.

The second chart shows the same data, but with modest speed increases. One does not have to build HFR-quality track to get very significant improvements in trip time. In fact, raising speed further in the model to 95 or 110 mph saves only a couple of minutes.

The only thing required to reach this level of trip timing is some very basic and straightforward track work - undercutting, tie replacement, rail replacement, surfacing, and crossing repairs. Maybe some bridge repairs. No issues with acquiring land, expensive civil works or grade separations.

Higher frequencies would demand a couple of new sidings, and that might add some meeting time to schedules, but you get the idea.

It is such a basic and fundamental bit of improvement that I cannot fathom why it is not being done. (nitpick - I included the KW-Guelph segment, which is being improved by ML)

- Paul

Current performance

Potential Performance

 

[vic]

Speaking of the Union-Niagara trains today...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1421511031755583490

I was on the Niagara-Union train that was supposed to depart Niagara falls at 3:16pm on Saturday. Because the Toronto-Niagara train arrived late, we ended up leaving around 4pm. Kudos to them quickly turning around and getting moving again...

However, the bigger pain the butt was that we were trying to get to Hamilton. The initial plan was:
3:16pm depart Niagara, arrive at Aldershot 4:30
5pm depart on bus from Aldershot, arrive in Hamilton at 5:17.
Not too bad overall, though the "Hamilton doesn't exist" feeling of the Niagara train with the added loop via Aldershot is annoying.

We were passing through Hamilton West Harbour at around 4:50....then had to wait for another GO train to pass us in the other direction. That delay put us into Aldershot at about 5:10, missing the connecting bus. So we had to catch the 6pm bus to Hamilton, which only left at about 6:15 (after waiting for another train to drop people at Aldershot), and arrived at Hamilton GO around 6:35.

Holy moly I would have loved to get off at West Harbour at 4:50 instead of Hamilton GO at 6:35. What a tease!

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1422724882886971394

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Great post!

Can't say enough about your excellent contributions!

Agreed @reaperexpress always comes with great demonstrations.

I think London to Union on GO is too far. The trains are not comfortable. I mean if you do this you have to Kingston and Peterborough.

 

[ShonTron]

For longer-distance travel, you would want more comfortable seating, with a bit more leg room, along with less harsh lighting than what GO trains currently have, with individual reading lights.

That really just means a reconfiguration and minor changes to the existing rail cars, could be part of regular midlife rebuild. Get rid of the default quad seating (but leave a few for groups), redo the lighting, and improve the seat comfort.


It’d be similar to the SNCF TER trainset I took from Paris to Chartres and back. No on-board services, a commuter-style double-deck train, but a bit more comfy than the RER sets.

 

[EnviroTO]

The only reason GO to London makes sense is the size of the populations of London and K-W, and the fact there is a proven demand for commuter service. The morning VIA train from London was acting as a business commuter, and at least one company was providing employees a daily bus between offices in London and Toronto. Many businesses with an HQ or major office in London, K-W, or Guelph also have a large presence in Toronto that employees commute to... not daily but often weekly or monthly.