[nfitz]

Stairs at Logan Avenue:

Isn't that the old staircase to the Canadian Chewing Gum factory? Presumably built when they grade separated it in the 1920s. But there's not much of an embankment - at Thackery there's ready access to the tracks; so this wouldn't have been for emergency egress.

The Coxwell one is particularly interesting, because you can see the stairs were rebuilt quite recently, when the underpass was re-done, you can also see the fence that blocks you from getting all the way up.

They built a fence on the pedestrian path from Coxwell to Woodfield, connecting to the Monarch Park underpass?

How odd; I haven't walked that way for a couple of months. When did you take your picture?

 

[Northern Light]

How odd; I haven't walked that way for a couple of months. When did you take your picture?

Picture is Streetview, didn't look at the date, but most are current to last year these days, but some might be 2020

 

[EnviroTO]

Seems like it is time for GO to put their thinking caps on and figure out what should have happened Friday night. Making excuses pointing at things beyond their control and things they can't do, is escaping from discussion what they could have done. What if there was a fire on the train... would the response be that it was too unsafe to unload the passengers? What if some person became violent and started going on a rampage... would the response be that it was too unsafe to unload passengers? What if the train derailed but was completely upright... would the response be that people remain for 24 hours while things are put together? Obviously at some point emptying the train needs to be an option that Metrolinx needs to find a way to make safe. There must be a way to better communicate, better prepare for heat/dehydration, better handle getting things running faster, and have a greater ability to safely get people off the train. I accept that you certainly wouldn't open the doors on an active corridor, and that unloading the train would should not be the choice for most delays due to the complexity of shutting down the corridor and providing a safe environment for walking, but there needs to be some capability to unload safely and a time limit after which it becomes Metrolinx's responsibility to free the hostages.

 

[nfitz]

Picture is Streetview, didn't look at the date, but most are current to last year these days, but some might be 2020

In can assure you then, there is no fence. That's a very-well used path, and by far the fastest way for residents on several streets to get to Coxwell and then Danforth.

Looking in Streetview, it's from 2021. The fence is the one parallel to the tracks. If you look in the leaves-down photo from April 2009, you get a better view. It turns at the top of the stairs.

I was surprised when they did all that work, that they didn't turn the stairs into a ramp.

 

[dkt]

Those stairs and the section of the pathway from Coxwell to Rhodes was redone pretty soon after the viaduct was rebuilt. They were in pretty bad shape before. I'm not sure exactly why they made the steps go higher (and raised the path) but there was probably some reason for it.

Also, IIRC there are a couple gates in the fence along the path. I happened to find one unlocked once!

 

[Mr Finish Line]

Why not just reverse the train back to Union and let people off there? If it's clear there's been a fatality on track at the next station, the train should just go backwards to the previous one and let people off there. It's really not that complicated.

 

[beatle04]

Why not just reverse the train back to Union and let people off there? If it's clear there's been a fatality on track at the next station, the train should just go backwards to the previous one and let people off there. It's really not that complicated.

Wasn't the train in question the train that hit the person?

 

[crs1026]

Why not just reverse the train back to Union and let people off there? If it's clear there's been a fatality on track at the next station, the train should just go backwards to the previous one and let people off there. It's really not that complicated.

I’m afraid that simplistic “why don’t they just….” proposals won’t change anything.

Someone needs to commission a working group consisting of reps from the various first response organizations and the rail agencies and regulator ( and maybe others eg the Attorney General) with a mandate that the current arrangement is unacceptable and must be changed. That mandate needs to be pretty firm because any one of the parties standing on the status quo can kill any forward motion.

The target audience for a better process involves so many people (hundreds of rail workers, thousands of first responders) and changing what people are accustomed to doing is not to be underestimated.

A few things that play into this
- the investigation of an incident has to be done to evidentiary standards in light of potential criminal and civil responses
- the position of the stopped train, and the status of numerous controls and devices on that train, may be part of that train of evidence and cannot be disturbed
- once the scene is occupied by first responders, the railway no longer has sufficient control of the scene to operate safely
- to be a bit graphic, the location(s) of human remains may make it unwise to have passengers on moving trains pass through the area
- the operability of the train itself may be in question and may need to be verified (and documented, see evidentiary comment)
- the train may itself be contaminated by human remains and not be fit to proceed
- the crew will no longer be fit for service

Rather than rushing to run trains during the incident investigation, my simplistic solution is to make the Incident Commander more accountable for the care and safety of those passengers. ML may not be able to rustle up a supply of shuttle buses to offload a disabled train, but I bet the Fire Department can get something done.

I would pass a regulation that every situation where a train containing passengers is stalled in an isolated location for longer than a defined period must be deemed a rescue emergency and requires dispatch of some level of first response with an accountable Incident Commander with legal authority and accountability to make decisions and take action. (Frankly, I feel the same approach is needed with respect to loaded airplanes that are parked on the tarmac for hours without regard for the human needs of passengers).

There is not, nor has there ever been, a design specification for railway rights of way mandating accessibility to every inch of line, either to bring first responders to a scene or to evacuate passengers from a scene. Standards for say evacuation of the TTC subway are far higher. It’s high time that this is addressed for GO service, at least in the urban environment of the GTA. There may be limits to what is possible, but we definitely need to do better.

- Paul

PS - maybe GO railcars need a maximum legal loading regulation. We don’t pack airplanes to standing room levels….

 

[smallspy]

Staircase to tracks at Coxwell:

View attachment 426281

Perhaps @smallspy or @crs1026 could lend some historical context as to why this was done this way at one point.

The Coxwell one is particularly interesting, because you can see the stairs were rebuilt quite recently, when the underpass was re-done, you can also see the fence that blocks you from getting all the way up.

That staircase doesn't lead to the tracks at all, but rather to a walkway - located at a lower level - that runs parallel to the tracks west for several blocks. This may have been a replacement for an alley that originally existed on that stretch, but I can't find any evidence of that.

This has been one of the few areas along the tracks that have historically always been fenced.

Dan

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Meh. When the literal Fire Marshal ordered an evacuation of 20 000 people from the Scotia Bank Arena due to a speaker fire a number of people STILL refused to leave and complained that their opinion of the severity of the situation overrode that of the Fire Marshal.

I think this was a lose, lose situation.

 

[Allandale25]

I assume this could mean more buses going to Port Credit and not all the way to Union...

Toronto traffic is about to get worse next year with Gardiner repairs and Metrolinx construction

Toronto roads, especially near Exhibition Place, will be “challenging” for drivers next summer as major congestion due to massive projects and events are set to take place in 2023.

www.thestar.com

 

[Diez Mil Cantos]

Why can't Metrolinx negotiate with CP to use the Canpa and Midtown Subs to divert around the Ex during construction? Is this feasible? Because if not, they might just break the most profitable GO line for years to come.

 

[lenaitch]

I’m afraid that simplistic “why don’t they just….” proposals won’t change anything.

Someone needs to commission a working group consisting of reps from the various first response organizations and the rail agencies and regulator ( and maybe others eg the Attorney General) with a mandate that the current arrangement is unacceptable and must be changed. That mandate needs to be pretty firm because any one of the parties standing on the status quo can kill any forward motion.

The target audience for a better process involves so many people (hundreds of rail workers, thousands of first responders) and changing what people are accustomed to doing is not to be underestimated.

A few things that play into this
- the investigation of an incident has to be done to evidentiary standards in light of potential criminal and civil responses
- the position of the stopped train, and the status of numerous controls and devices on that train, may be part of that train of evidence and cannot be disturbed
- once the scene is occupied by first responders, the railway no longer has sufficient control of the scene to operate safely
- to be a bit graphic, the location(s) of human remains may make it unwise to have passengers on moving trains pass through the area
- the operability of the train itself may be in question and may need to be verified (and documented, see evidentiary comment)
- the train may itself be contaminated by human remains and not be fit to proceed
- the crew will no longer be fit for service

Rather than rushing to run trains during the incident investigation, my simplistic solution is to make the Incident Commander more accountable for the care and safety of those passengers. ML may not be able to rustle up a supply of shuttle buses to offload a disabled train, but I bet the Fire Department can get something done.

I would pass a regulation that every situation where a train containing passengers is stalled in an isolated location for longer than a defined period must be deemed a rescue emergency and requires dispatch of some level of first response with an accountable Incident Commander with legal authority and accountability to make decisions and take action. (Frankly, I feel the same approach is needed with respect to loaded airplanes that are parked on the tarmac for hours without regard for the human needs of passengers).

There is not, nor has there ever been, a design specification for railway rights of way mandating accessibility to every inch of line, either to bring first responders to a scene or to evacuate passengers from a scene. Standards for say evacuation of the TTC subway are far higher. It’s high time that this is addressed for GO service, at least in the urban environment of the GTA. There may be limits to what is possible, but we definitely need to do better.

- Paul

PS - maybe GO railcars need a maximum legal loading regulation. We don’t pack airplanes to standing room levels….

All good points but, as always, the devil is in the details. An incident commander isn't a magical designation. He/she can only call upon and direct resources that are (a) already under their command, or (b) placed under their command by virtue of an agreement. In an incident such as this, the first question is always 'who is in charge'. If a death is involved, it would be the Coroner (who, btw, commands virtually no resources). At a major fire, clearly a senior fire commander would be in charge and can direct Fire Service resources as they see fit, but he or she has no natural authority to, for example, order up a fleet of buses and drivers. That requires agreements, and agreements require protocols. If nothing else, the protocols help ensure that the external resources are appropriate and/or don't make things worse. It is somewhat easier when the various services have the same employer (i.e. the City of Toronto) but it gets more complicated when they are different. It gets even more complicated when the resources needed are from the private sector.

All of this needs to be sorted out beforehand. It's called planning, and seems like it is something Metrolinx (and VIA by the sounds of it) needs to do a whole lot better.

 

[Willybru21]

I’m afraid that simplistic “why don’t they just….” proposals won’t change anything.

Someone needs to commission a working group consisting of reps from the various first response organizations and the rail agencies and regulator ( and maybe others eg the Attorney General) with a mandate that the current arrangement is unacceptable and must be changed. That mandate needs to be pretty firm because any one of the parties standing on the status quo can kill any forward motion.

The target audience for a better process involves so many people (hundreds of rail workers, thousands of first responders) and changing what people are accustomed to doing is not to be underestimated.

A few things that play into this
- the investigation of an incident has to be done to evidentiary standards in light of potential criminal and civil responses
- the position of the stopped train, and the status of numerous controls and devices on that train, may be part of that train of evidence and cannot be disturbed
- once the scene is occupied by first responders, the railway no longer has sufficient control of the scene to operate safely
- to be a bit graphic, the location(s) of human remains may make it unwise to have passengers on moving trains pass through the area
- the operability of the train itself may be in question and may need to be verified (and documented, see evidentiary comment)
- the train may itself be contaminated by human remains and not be fit to proceed
- the crew will no longer be fit for service

Rather than rushing to run trains during the incident investigation, my simplistic solution is to make the Incident Commander more accountable for the care and safety of those passengers. ML may not be able to rustle up a supply of shuttle buses to offload a disabled train, but I bet the Fire Department can get something done.

I would pass a regulation that every situation where a train containing passengers is stalled in an isolated location for longer than a defined period must be deemed a rescue emergency and requires dispatch of some level of first response with an accountable Incident Commander with legal authority and accountability to make decisions and take action. (Frankly, I feel the same approach is needed with respect to loaded airplanes that are parked on the tarmac for hours without regard for the human needs of passengers).

There is not, nor has there ever been, a design specification for railway rights of way mandating accessibility to every inch of line, either to bring first responders to a scene or to evacuate passengers from a scene. Standards for say evacuation of the TTC subway are far higher. It’s high time that this is addressed for GO service, at least in the urban environment of the GTA. There may be limits to what is possible, but we definitely need to do better.

- Paul

PS - maybe GO railcars need a maximum legal loading regulation. We don’t pack airplanes to standing room levels….

Yesterday I spoke to the CSA that took over at Mimico, they said the police had taken over the scene for the investigation and wouldn’t allow any sort of official evacuation even if one was proposed by GO. He showed me a photo that he was sent of the nearest bridge and how emergency services were getting down and it indeed was far too steep, to the point where a rope would’ve needed to be used to get people up (not feasible for thousands of people).

As for crowding, the cab car hit the person and the train stopped as the first coach and locomotive were sitting on top of the remains, so everyone in the first coach was forced to move further up the train as to not have to see the remains of who was hit, which reduced the already busy train to 11 usable cars, later on; when people pried the door open on another coach, that one was also closed for the remainder of the trip (I can’t remember if they switched trains as Mimico or Oakville, so it wasn’t an issue for too long, further reducing capacity.

I agree that Metrolinx and GO didn’t handle the situation correctly, but they also did the most they could’ve done in that situation, it’s just the general public doesn’t know or understand how these sort of things are handled.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yesterday I spoke to the CSA that took over at Mimico, they said the police had taken over the scene for the investigation and wouldn’t allow any sort of official evacuation even if one was proposed by GO. He showed me a photo that he was sent of the nearest bridge and how emergency services were getting down and it indeed was far too steep, to the point where a rope would’ve needed to be used to get people up (not feasible for thousands of people).

As for crowding, the cab car hit the person and the train stopped as the first coach and locomotive were sitting on top of the remains, so everyone in the first coach was forced to move further up the train as to not have to see the remains of who was hit, which reduced the already busy train to 11 usable cars, later on; when people pried the door open on another coach, that one was also closed for the remainder of the trip (I can’t remember if they switched trains as Mimico or Oakville, so it wasn’t an issue for too long, further reducing capacity.

I agree that Metrolinx and GO didn’t handle the situation correctly, but they also did the most they could’ve done in that situation, it’s just the general public doesn’t know or understand how these sort of things are handled.

You could still park a train on the adjacent track and transfer customers in less than 3 hours.