[felix123]

True but it is coming to the point wherein service quality gets diminished so much that he will have no choice but to raise wages.

I'm still sceptical, given what has transpired in hospitals. Transit service isn't as pressing to the general population as ER wait times either, so this is less likely to galvanize a critical mass of "Ontarions" - as he would pronounce it - into sustained protest.
Despite it all, I hope within a year's time that this will have blown over, express trains will have returned, etc.

 

[Northern Light]

True but it is coming to the point wherein service quality gets diminished so much that he will have no choice but to raise wages.

This government has some sort of odd mentality around wages; as if it fails to grasp that higher wages equal GDP growth and higher tax revenue.

Its been actively suppressing not only public sector wages, but also private sector wages, in part, through what is becoming one of the lowest minimum wages in the U.S. and Canada, relative to cost of living.

I have posted with some regularity on a number of US Cities and some states with minimum wages, that when currency-adjusted are significantly higher than Ontario's.

But in Canada, we need to look at commitments to $15 minimum wages next year in Manitoba to ascertain the problem in Toronto.

Toronto is somewhere in the range of 40% more expensive to live in than Winnipeg, but even a very conservative estimate of 33% would suggest that if Manitoba's minimum wage is $15 per hour, Toronto's needs to be $20.

But at 40% you would get $21 per hour (still slightly below most living wage calculations, but enough to drastically reduce poverty and increase labour-force participation)

Mx staff and nursing staff are both, on the whole, considerably better paid than a minimum wage earner. But as with minimum wage earners, wages are not keeping pace with any of inflation, peer jurisdictions, or the private sector market.

Its frankly very odd.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm still sceptical, given what has transpired in hospitals. Transit service isn't as pressing to the general population as ER wait times either, so this is less likely to galvanize a critical mass of "Ontarions" - as he would pronounce it - into sustained protest.
Despite it all, I hope within a year's time that this will have blown over, express trains will have returned, etc.

I agree the hospital situation is more serious; and yet, I would argue less likely to galvanize Ontarians.

For the simple reason that far fewer people in any given month are likely to access a hospital ER vs public transport.

A problem you or an immediate family member/friend does not experience has much lower effect, typically, than those you are directly affected by.

 

[Richard White]

This government has some sort of odd mentality around wages; as if it fails to grasp that higher wages equal GDP growth and higher tax revenue.

Its been actively suppressing not only public sector wages, but also private sector wages, in part, through what is becoming one of the lowest minimum wages in the U.S. and Canada, relative to cost of living.

I have posted with some regularity on a number of US Cities and some states with minimum wages, that when currency-adjusted are significantly higher than Ontario's.

But in Canada, we need to look at commitments to $15 minimum wages next year in Manitoba to ascertain the problem in Toronto.

Toronto is somewhere in the range of 40% more expensive to live in that Winnipeg, but even a very conservative estimate of 33% would suggest that if Manitoba's minimum wage is $15 per hour, Toronto's needs to be $20.

But at 40% you would get $21 per hour (still slightly below most living wage calculations, but enough to drastically reduce poverty and increase labour-force participation)

Mx staff and nursing staff are both, on the whole, considerably better paid than a minimum wage earner. But as with minimum wage earners, wages are not keeping pace with any of inflation, peer jurisdictions, or the private sector market.

Its frankly very odd.

Let me put it this way.

I make $60000 annually which would be the equivalent of $28.85 gross per hour. Even now, as I stated before it is hard to afford a place on those wages in Toronto. The average one bedroom rental is $2500 a month in Toronto and I make $3400.00 net monthly. That leaves me with $900 a month for food, utilities, transit and anything else that may come up.

Making $21 an hour would equate to $3360.00 gross a month. That is by no means affordable in Toronto.

 

[APTA-2048]

Its frankly very odd.

It’s not odd at all. Ford’s ideology is based in selfishness, greed, and lack of care for other people. Too blinded by that to see a net benefit and only caring about personal benefit.

 

[Northern Light]

Let me put it this way.

I make $60000 annually which would be the equivalent of $28.85 gross per hour. Even now, as I stated before it is hard to afford a place on those wages in Toronto. The average one bedroom rental is $2500 a month in Toronto and I make $3400.00 net monthly. That leaves me with $900 a month for food, utilities, transit and anything else that may come up.

Making $21 an hour would equate to $3360.00 gross a month. That is by no means affordable in Toronto.

I agree, which makes the current minimum wage, as of October, of $15.50 per hour all the more absurd.

It also highlights that even seemingly good wages (~ the median income in Toronto) are simply too low relative to the cost of living.

 

[Northern Light]

It’s not odd at all. Ford’s ideology is based in selfishness, greed, and lack of care for other people. Too blinded by that to see a net benefit and only caring about personal benefit.

I don't disagree on the latter but still find it odd; for the simple reason that addressing the inadequacy of wages would drive economic growth which will benefit Ford personally and politically, and his supporters.

Put simply, even if one's preferred (if wrong) adage is "Greed is good"; greed here calls for more short-term generosity because it pays back in spades to society's haves as well.

 

[APTA-2048]

I don't disagree on the latter but still find it odd; for the simple reason that addressing the inadequacy of wages would drive economic growth which will benefit Ford personally and politically, and his supporters.

Put simply, even if one's preferred (if wrong) adage is "Greed is good"; greed here calls for more short-term generosity because it pays back in spades to society's haves as well.

Some people also wrongly believe people deserve to suffer based on perceived choices they’ve made. You know, the people who think working a minimum wage job is the result of some personal failing of the individual. “Those people don’t deserve any benefits because I’ve had to work for everything I’ve achieved.” “Maybe they could get a better job if they weren’t so lazy.”

 

[Richard White]

Some people also wrongly believe people deserve to suffer based on perceived choices they’ve made. You know, the people who think working a minimum wage job is the result of some personal failing of the individual. “Those people don’t deserve any benefits because I’ve had to work for everything I’ve achieved.” “Maybe they could get a better job if they weren’t so lazy.”

It took me 12 years to go from Condo Security to Condo Management. That was through no fault of my own, I busted my ass to get where I am today.

The point I am making is that sometimes working minimum is sometimes no fault of the person, they just do not have the opportunity. I had to wait until the stars aligned before I was able to get where I am today.

 

[PL1]

If Doug Ford froze nurse wages during the pandemic, it doesn't bode well for Metrolinx.

Agreed. Just noting that Bill 124 took affect prior to the pandemic. It was just never repealed.

 

[crs1026]

As someone who actually had responsibility for the production of Sunshine Lists in my career, I can only say that it's a no-win proposition all round.

So long as the media is free to sensationalise any public wage increase, no matter how small, and so long as the public is free to bellyache about a janitor's salary, there is little room for objectivity nor incentive for politicians and public sector execs to think rationally about the problem.

Add to this the deeply felt mindset of most politicians in the Province (of every stripe) that their core duty is to deliver tax cuts.....

One thing that is widely overlooked..... public sector employees generally have far less access to tax relief than private sector employees, especially the self-employed who have far more access to writing off their homes, cars, entertainment expenses, etc. When you consider that anyone on the Sunshine List is likely in one of the highest tax categories, any added compensation they are given comes back to government possibly to the point of 40-50ish% taxation. And anything they retain and spend is likely paying HST at a further 14% rate. The biggest beneficiary of raises to government employees is..... our government.

- Paul

 

[Krypto98]

As someone who actually had responsibility for the production of Sunshine Lists in my career, I can only say that it's a no-win proposition all round.

I've never been a big fan of the sunshine list since it doesn't really list how many hours they worked. Yeah people get outraged when a nurse or ttc bus driver makes 100k a year but if they saw how much overtime they did...

 

[APTA-2048]

I've never been a big fan of the sunshine list since it doesn't really list how many hours they worked. Yeah people get outraged when a nurse or ttc bus driver makes 100k a year but if they saw how much overtime they did...

We've been conditioned to resent people who are being treated fairly instead of demanding the same fair treatment. That truly is the whole point of this list now, to keep people from demanding better.

 

[Bordercollie]

We've been conditioned to resent people who are being treated fairly instead of demanding the same fair treatment. That truly is the whole point of this list now, to keep people from demanding better.

Post COVID I think every organization is struggling with finding balance between efficiency and employee morale. A lot of companies don't know how to adjust to new norms and want to force everyone to go back to how things were in the early 2000's.

Also making over 100k shouldn't get you on the "sunshine" list considering the cost of living today.

 

[allengeorge]

We've been conditioned to resent people who are being treated fairly instead of demanding the same fair treatment. That truly is the whole point of this list now, to keep people from demanding better.

We see the same thing with pensions: as the private sector has cut pensions (and in many cases doesn’t offer them - I’ve never been offered one) people start to resent the pensions that the public sector has. We really do want to have our cake and eat it too: pay low taxes, buy as much as we want, be profligate in terms of living, and get gold plated services. It just doesn’t work.