Kiwi
Active Member
Some great news for Hamilton and the Niagara Region for GO Transit.....
LikeHamilton @ SSP
LikeHamilton @ SSP
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
ShonTron
Moderator
The long-delayed Brampton/Georgetown-Union hourly bus service will be introduced on June 28. This will likely be the same time as the Stony Creek bus service.
If we were to run more trains to Niagara (and I wish we would), there should be a high-level bridge over the canal, but would be an expensive undertaking. I think it would be better and cheaper than a tunnel.
If we were to run more trains to Niagara (and I wish we would), there should be a high-level bridge over the canal, but would be an expensive undertaking. I think it would be better and cheaper than a tunnel.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I have definitely been to look at the line. It is used occasionally, probably one or two times a day for CP to serve the steel mills and other industrial customers by the lake. I know that it runs through a fairly built-up area. But so what? Hamilton is one of the biggest cities in Canada, and it should most definitely have rail service to a single intermodal station in the downtown core. As I mentioned before, there are several levels of improvement that could be done on the Belt Line. I think that full grade separation along the entire line is more than needed unless we're talking about passenger trains more frequent than one an hour. You'd almost certainly need a grade separation at Gage and Main, and probably across King and Dunsmure. The rest of the intersections are probably fine with upgraded level crossings with full gates.
The project might require the expropriation of maybe a couple houses. I'd expect a total cost in the neighbourhood of $50 million, which is more than reasonable for a city Hamilton's size. Eventually, if service really increases you'd need full grade separation and double-tracking, which would dramatically add to the cost. In the short term, however, an improved single track is more than sufficient. Remember that the entire Grimsby Sub is only single track.
A tunnel may be cheaper than another skyway, especially for trains that require fairly gentle grades. They're talking about replacing the Garden City Skyway for the QEW, and a tunnel seems to be the preferred option.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The deal with a Welland Canal crossing is just east of the canal the rail line climbs the escarpment (much of it in a cutting). This alone would make a bridge more feasible. At railway grades, a tunnel probably wouldn't return to the surface until Niagara Falls.
Kiwi
Active Member
There have been some talks from the city of linking the CP and CN rail line at Grays Road, that was the talk during Doors Open at TH&B Station. This is one of the lowest grade of the Escarpment.
Do bad the city didn't link the two rail lines during the Red Hill Creek Expressway construction.
Do bad the city didn't link the two rail lines during the Red Hill Creek Expressway construction.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
My thoughts exactly!!
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I can't understand Grays Road. You still have to cross the escarpment twice, compared with no crossings on the Belt Line route. You also have to build a completely greenfield railway line, and you're still going through an urban area. The Belt Line route would also allow service to potentially busy areas in East Hamilton and Stoney Creek.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
As Johnny said a few pages back, the belt line is the absolute worst route to take.
It would be a political nightmare, due to the fact that it comes within yards of residential buildings. Not properties, buildings.
It would be a planning nightmare, as there would be no possibility for expanding service. There is no room for stations, and there are active land uses on both sides of the track for the entire route of the corridor.
It would be an engineering nightmare, as we would have to tunnel at the north end to widen the impossible curve to connect to the Grimsby sub. In fact, you would have to tunnel the entire line to even come close to solving the first two nightmares. The fact that every intersection is a level crossing is another issue.
The best way to complete this project is to either fit it in the expressway corridor, fit it along the base of the escarpment until you can get to Fruitland Road, or find a way to live with a Toronto-Hamilton-Fort Erie route and a separate Toronto-Hamilton North-Niagara Falls route.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Huh. Whatever happened to "for discussion purposes"?
Any route would run near residential properties. So what? The existing CN Grimsby Sub, TH&B Line, and pretty much every other rail line run close to residential properties. Moreover, the belt line is already built, so everybody next to it is already well aware that they're living next to a railway line.
I understand that you might not have much experience with politics, but you vastly overestimate the problems caused by a handful of NIMBYs. The St. Clair streetcar upgrade faced vastly greater opposition than a belt line improvement could possibly face, and yet it was built. If governments want to build something, they can build it.
Uh, I'm not sure how it would be a planning nightmare. In fact, it woulud be a planning boon. No possibility for expanding service? Well, the whole point of expanding the belt line would be to expand service. It would allow CP trains to bypass downtown Hamilton, and allow the extension of GO service to Niagara and VIA service to Downtown Hamilton. There are active land uses everywhere. That's why every infrastructure project has impacts on its neighbours. That being said, the impacts on this project are far outweighed by the benefits. No room for stations? It's about a mile long. This isn't a subway If you really wanted to build a station, you could, but on an intercity rail route I wouldn't put more than a couple stations in the City of Hamilton. The Hamilton GO Centre, and then maybe ones around Centre Mall and Centennial.
People seem to be living under this strange illusion these days that expropriation is somehow impossible. How do you think they build highways? Water treatment plants? Power corridors? Pipelines?
Tunnel? Haha, are you serious? You've been spending too much time listening to the TTC! There's a large parking lot right at the northern end of the line. Simply swing the track slightly west, and build a wye going in each direction to the Grimsby sub. Look at my little map, and it'll be quite clear.
Those are just about the worst routes that you could possibly take. The TH&B line is far slower and less direct than the Grimsby sub, and it serves far fewer people. The only way to go is to return to the Grimsby sub east of Hamilton, if you want to offer continuous service. Moreover, it's very doubtful that CP would ever allow frequent passenger service on its route.
The expressway corridor is not an option, because it runs through a creekbed, already has significant environmental impact, is too meandering, and most importantly would require another escarpment crossing which governments are making every effort to avoid. The same problem would be faced by a crossing out at Fruitland Road, as well as dealing with a TH&B line that is also meandering, very difficult to expand, less well-located, and with challenging grades. That being said, the Fruitland Road route is also a serious possibility. It wouldn't be a bad route, despite its significant drawbacks of two escarpment crossings, more issues with CP, and reduced stop opportunities in East Hamilton and Stoney Creek.
Any route would run near residential properties. So what? The existing CN Grimsby Sub, TH&B Line, and pretty much every other rail line run close to residential properties. Moreover, the belt line is already built, so everybody next to it is already well aware that they're living next to a railway line.
I understand that you might not have much experience with politics, but you vastly overestimate the problems caused by a handful of NIMBYs. The St. Clair streetcar upgrade faced vastly greater opposition than a belt line improvement could possibly face, and yet it was built. If governments want to build something, they can build it.
Uh, I'm not sure how it would be a planning nightmare. In fact, it woulud be a planning boon. No possibility for expanding service? Well, the whole point of expanding the belt line would be to expand service. It would allow CP trains to bypass downtown Hamilton, and allow the extension of GO service to Niagara and VIA service to Downtown Hamilton. There are active land uses everywhere. That's why every infrastructure project has impacts on its neighbours. That being said, the impacts on this project are far outweighed by the benefits. No room for stations? It's about a mile long. This isn't a subway If you really wanted to build a station, you could, but on an intercity rail route I wouldn't put more than a couple stations in the City of Hamilton. The Hamilton GO Centre, and then maybe ones around Centre Mall and Centennial.
People seem to be living under this strange illusion these days that expropriation is somehow impossible. How do you think they build highways? Water treatment plants? Power corridors? Pipelines?
Tunnel? Haha, are you serious? You've been spending too much time listening to the TTC! There's a large parking lot right at the northern end of the line. Simply swing the track slightly west, and build a wye going in each direction to the Grimsby sub. Look at my little map, and it'll be quite clear.
Those are just about the worst routes that you could possibly take. The TH&B line is far slower and less direct than the Grimsby sub, and it serves far fewer people. The only way to go is to return to the Grimsby sub east of Hamilton, if you want to offer continuous service. Moreover, it's very doubtful that CP would ever allow frequent passenger service on its route.
The expressway corridor is not an option, because it runs through a creekbed, already has significant environmental impact, is too meandering, and most importantly would require another escarpment crossing which governments are making every effort to avoid. The same problem would be faced by a crossing out at Fruitland Road, as well as dealing with a TH&B line that is also meandering, very difficult to expand, less well-located, and with challenging grades. That being said, the Fruitland Road route is also a serious possibility. It wouldn't be a bad route, despite its significant drawbacks of two escarpment crossings, more issues with CP, and reduced stop opportunities in East Hamilton and Stoney Creek.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
All the problems I listed could be overcome, but it will not be easy or in-expensive.
Yes, St. Clair was opposed, but you cannot compare heavy rail to light rail. It's in a completely different league.
Yes, you could expropriate properties to build all sorts of run stuff, but very rarely do they expropriate entire properties and demolish buildings. Putting a station in the Main - Gage - King triangle would require just that.
Yes, you could run heavy-rail trains that close to residences, but is that really a good thing? Forget what the residents think - are the planning benefits worth the planning problems it will create? I don't think so, but I'll admit that's a matter of opinion and I respect the fact that you hold a different one.
No, you don't have to tunnel, but we're looking at 8 level crossings. Transport Canada sets the standards for grade crossings, and the formula takes into account train speed, frequency and traffic volume. It's likely that you'll have to build underpasses at Barton, Cannon, King, Dunsmure, Main & Gage. You might as well run the entire line in a trench or a tunnel.
Getting people from the Grimsby sub into downtown Hamilton is something we should pursue, but where are people going? People going from northern Niagara into Toronto would not want a diversion through downtown Hamilton. People going from southern Niagara to Hamilton (or Toronto) would be using the CP line - a line which Niagara politicians are calling for. To get people from northern Niagara to downtown Hamilton, why not build a new connection track to turn CN Hamilton Junction/CP Desjardins into a full wye? It would be less disruptive than using the belt line (in my opinion, of course), and speed would make the detour negligible.
Fruitland remains the best choice in my books though.
Yes, St. Clair was opposed, but you cannot compare heavy rail to light rail. It's in a completely different league.
Yes, you could expropriate properties to build all sorts of run stuff, but very rarely do they expropriate entire properties and demolish buildings. Putting a station in the Main - Gage - King triangle would require just that.
Yes, you could run heavy-rail trains that close to residences, but is that really a good thing? Forget what the residents think - are the planning benefits worth the planning problems it will create? I don't think so, but I'll admit that's a matter of opinion and I respect the fact that you hold a different one.
No, you don't have to tunnel, but we're looking at 8 level crossings. Transport Canada sets the standards for grade crossings, and the formula takes into account train speed, frequency and traffic volume. It's likely that you'll have to build underpasses at Barton, Cannon, King, Dunsmure, Main & Gage. You might as well run the entire line in a trench or a tunnel.
Getting people from the Grimsby sub into downtown Hamilton is something we should pursue, but where are people going? People going from northern Niagara into Toronto would not want a diversion through downtown Hamilton. People going from southern Niagara to Hamilton (or Toronto) would be using the CP line - a line which Niagara politicians are calling for. To get people from northern Niagara to downtown Hamilton, why not build a new connection track to turn CN Hamilton Junction/CP Desjardins into a full wye? It would be less disruptive than using the belt line (in my opinion, of course), and speed would make the detour negligible.
Fruitland remains the best choice in my books though.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Like I've said, I estimate an order of magnitude cost between about $50 and $100 million, depending on how elaborate you want the line to be.
Wait...what? In what way is a heavy or light rail project inherently different in terms of community opposition? I don't really think it makes too much of a difference to people whether they lose their lawn to a heavy rail line or a light rail line.
Uh, when did anyone ever mention building a station in that triangle? If you really wanted one, sure you could expropriate, but I never suggested such a station and I don't really think it's necessary.
But that's just the thing: they already run that close to residences. The belt line is a working rail line, and with heavy freight trains hauling to Stelco, not comparatively swift and quiet passenger trains.
Virtually every line in Canada has grade crossings. There are limitations on speed with frequent crossings, but I don't imagine you'd ever run faster than about 45 miles per hour through the city in any case.
Because there's no way that there's enough demand for people travelling from Niagara Falls to Hamilton to justify a frequent rail service on its own. The way to provide a frequent service that everybody will ride, both commuters and intercity travellers, is to connect all the major dots: Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Downtown Hamilton, and Toronto. Fruitland can accomplish that, with the added cost of a completely greenfield route and an additional escarpment crossing, so that's a conceivable route.
adma
Superstar
What's the matter with the GCS? It never struck me as fatally unsightly or unsound...
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I think it's just that it can't be widened. Those skyways also seem to be aging very rapidly. They're also talking about replacing the Champlain Bridge, since it needs to be completely refurbished again after only about ten years.
http://www.regional.niagara.on.ca/government/initiatives/Potential-Projects.aspx
http://www.regional.niagara.on.ca/government/initiatives/Potential-Projects.aspx
drum118
Superstar
New Bus Services: GO Transit will be launching two new bus services at the end of June 2008, and adding more service on a third bus route.
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The Bronte-Milton bus service will provide two-way service for passengers during peak period and off-peak hours, with 13 trips in each direction. This new service will provide needed intercity connection between Bronte and Milton and new connections with GO’s 407 services at the Burlington 407 carpool lot, the Lakeshore West train service and to McMaster University.
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New bus service between GO’s Burlington Station and Stoney Creek will provide 16 express trips in each direction from a new park and ride lot in Stoney Creek to the Burlington GO Station, connecting with eastbound peak period trains and bi-hourly off-peak.
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Buses operating from Union Station on GO’s Georgetown corridor will see an increase of weekend and holiday service, in response to increase demand. Buses will operate express hourly service serving Georgetown – Mt. Pleasant – Brampton to/from Union, and a second hourly service serving the Bramalea and Malton markets to/from Union. Every second Georgetown trip will extend to Guelph.
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The Bronte-Milton bus service will provide two-way service for passengers during peak period and off-peak hours, with 13 trips in each direction. This new service will provide needed intercity connection between Bronte and Milton and new connections with GO’s 407 services at the Burlington 407 carpool lot, the Lakeshore West train service and to McMaster University.
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New bus service between GO’s Burlington Station and Stoney Creek will provide 16 express trips in each direction from a new park and ride lot in Stoney Creek to the Burlington GO Station, connecting with eastbound peak period trains and bi-hourly off-peak.
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Buses operating from Union Station on GO’s Georgetown corridor will see an increase of weekend and holiday service, in response to increase demand. Buses will operate express hourly service serving Georgetown – Mt. Pleasant – Brampton to/from Union, and a second hourly service serving the Bramalea and Malton markets to/from Union. Every second Georgetown trip will extend to Guelph.
doady
Senior Member
Haha, FINALLY some increased service for Georgetown corridor, plus some service to Guelph too. Nice...