[dunkalunk]

I can't see anything happening on the Midtown Line unless some government bought up all of the east-west rail corridors in Toronto and designated the CN York Subdivision as a freight corridor and built a connecting line between the CP Galt Sub at Lisgar to the York sub north of Pearson. If almost all freight traffic were diverted around CP's Mainline, GO could then sweep in and buy the entire corridor and could run service on it with relatively minor upgrades.

Now before anyone lambastes this idea, consider this: How does the provincial government have the money to consider cutting out a 100m wide highway ROW from Vaughan to Guelph, but not have the money to build a much shorter, 20m wide freight rail bypass?

 

[canarob]

Most recent GO/Metrolinx references, seem to think it would run to Union though.

How would that work? Would it turn onto the Stouffville line near Agincourt? Turn onto the Richmond Hill line near the DVP?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

I can't see anything happening on the Midtown Line unless some government bought up all of the east-west rail corridors in Toronto and designated the CN York Subdivision as a freight corridor and built a connecting line between the CP Galt Sub at Lisgar to the York sub north of Pearson. If almost all freight traffic were diverted around CP's Mainline, GO could then sweep in and buy the entire corridor and could run service on it with relatively minor upgrades.

Now before anyone lambastes this idea, consider this: How does the provincial government have the money to consider cutting out a 100m wide highway ROW from Vaughan to Guelph, but not have the money to build a much shorter, 20m wide freight rail bypass?

Oh no, I don't anyone with any common sense would disagree with the idea. In fact many other people have thought of that solution, myself included. The government(GO) has already bought up most of the east-west lines (Weston, Kingston and part of the Oakville subs). I don't even think the biggest problem is cost (to build that new right of way). The main problem is CN and CP themselves.

A business case would have to be made that such a by-pass is in their best interests, since they really have all the control. Sure the government could step in and force them to do such a thing for the greater public good, but they won't(when have they ever?) They're far too afraid of scaring off 'big business'. I've seen it, we've all seen it, its happen on matters of far less concern. Frankly and unfortunately, I don't see CN or CP going along with the idea for fear of the congestion it would create on the york sub. Which would become the only mainline rail connection between Western and Eastern Canada that could be used by the two major railroads (now that the OVR is being dismantled).

 

[nfitz]

How would that work? Would it turn onto the Stouffville line near Agincourt? Turn onto the Richmond Hill line near the DVP?

The Metrolinx report on the Peterborough line (which is ultimate terminus) noted that "If Union Station is selected as the Toronto terminus, trains would continue on the Uxbridge Subdivision to the junction with CN’s Kingston Subdivision in Scarborough, and then along the Kingston Subdivision for 6.84 miles to the Union Station Rail Corridor, and then a further 1.4 miles to Union Station.". There's also been talk on carrying on the Belleville Subdivision to Leaside, and coming down the Don.

Bottom line is I don't think they know yet!

 

[dunkalunk]

Oh no, I don't anyone with any common sense would disagree with the idea. In fact many other people have thought of that solution, myself included. The government(GO) has already bought up most of the east-west lines (Weston, Kingston and part of the Oakville subs). I don't even think the biggest problem is cost (to build that new right of way). The main problem is CN and CP themselves.

A business case would have to be made that such a by-pass is in their best interests, since they really have all the control. Sure the government could step in and force them to do such a thing for the greater public good, but they won't(when have they ever?) They're far too afraid of scaring off 'big business'. I've seen it, we've all seen it, its happen on matters of far less concern. Frankly and unfortunately, I don't see CN or CP going along with the idea for fear of the congestion it would create on the york sub. Which would become the only mainline rail connection between Western and Eastern Canada that could be used by the two major railroads (now that the OVR is being dismantled).

What if GO decided to buy the York Sub, upgrade the signalling, maintain it, and expand it when necessary, only charging rents for its use.

GO would essentially act as the line's operator, much in the way that a harbormaster would take control of a ship in a congested Seaport. CN and CP would still maintain full control of movements within their yards, but with CTC in place along the York Sub, both CN and CP could actually see some time savings if GO took over operations and through technology, decreased the headway space.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Problem is CN & CP will not relinquish any control over their primary mainlines and ownership is a form of control. Hence as long as the York sub is CN's main line access to their yard they will never sell it. If they don't own the line they can't control who runs on it and they absolutely don't want any additional trains other than their own on it. Currently they are operating just about as efficiently as possible. Their main lines don't need any upgrades since CTC is already in place and it works just fine when it comes to freight trains. When you run 2 mile long trains which take 2+ miles to stop there is no need to space them any closer then the signal system currently allows for. Shorter blocks only benefit passenger trains, allowing them to be spaced more closely thereby increasing capacity on the line. Basically and unfortunately for us, the freight railway's are content with the status quo they have absolutely no intention of changing the way they currently do things.

 

[dunkalunk]

Why couldn't we build a parallel CP corridor in the same ROW directly south of the existing York sub. The lines wouldn't even have to intersect more than they already do.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Its something CN would have to agree to and I'd doubt they would. They'd like to protect the corridor for their own interests in case they ever need to substantial expand the line. Not sure if that right of way is wide enough to allow for two multi-track mainlines in any case without additional expropriation.

And CP wouldn't like the idea because it takes them around their yard to the east side. Which makes train movements that are only making a cut off in the yard much less efficient since now the engines also have to turn around and go to the other side of the train to continue eastward. If there's one thing the railways LOVE doing its finding ways to become more efficient, to do more with less. CP won't agree to anything that'll increase the logistics behind train movements. Trust me, I really wish the government would take a stronger approach on this matter... but its not something that I see as realistically happening.

 

[dunkalunk]

Here's a crazy idea just crazy enough to be crazy. Why not run a new freight rail corridor down the middle of the 401? (Of course this will also NEVER happen, but at least it would get rid of the backtracking issue )

An equally crazy idea that is also probably illegal. Convince CN and CP that a merger is a good idea, and when it fails, re-nationalize it.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Convince CN and CP that a merger is a good idea, and when it fails, re-nationalize it.

If only. At one point in the 90's I think that was actually was being considered, shame it didn't happen, would of been better for everyone. Some people might be against it since it would create a monopoly. But they seem to forget that CN & CP's biggest competition isn't actually each other, its the trucking industry.

 

[dunkalunk]

The Government of Canada could incentivize the merger by making of list of rail corridors they would like to buy out for High Speed purposes.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Can you imagine, getting all those freights off the Kingston sub? We'd have high speed rail in a matter of a few years! rather than probably a few decades

This can be done by having them run on CP's current east-west mainline (Belleville sub) though it'll need some seriously upgrading. Hell let the government pay for it, still way cheaper to upgrade and expanded the trackage than build an entirely new mainline. It'll be more than worth it to have the Kingston sub as our own.

 

[GTS]

My wife and I had a lot of time off this summer and we spent some time in the Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge area visiting some family friends and stuff for our children. I am fairly new to Ontario, but, this area has three fairly large cities near each other and all within range of having a commuter rail line to Toronto (if there was a GO line I imagine the commute would be about an hour or so depending on the number of stations between the region and TO)-I think I saw a GO bus out there but I don't think their is a GO rail station. Hopefully they have some plans to bring GO to this reasonably populated area and maybe take a bit of load off the 401 freeing it up for truck traffic to help our economy.

 

[Markster]

GO is bringing two round trips this fall to Kitchener.
They haven't released schedules, but it's expected that the trips will leave sometime between 5:45am and 7:00am, and take 1:45-2:00 hours.

 

[dunkalunk]

There are plans to bring GO train service the Kitchener at least. The train will leave in the mornings and return in the evenings and take 2 hours to get to Downtown Toronto. The track needs serious upgrades that neither GEXR or CN are willing to pay for.