mpd618
Active Member
With trains that go from Toronto to Kitchener in the morning, and park alongside GO trains, which separate trains and operators make the return trip? You can't be serious.
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- Thread starter drum118
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With trains that go from Toronto to Kitchener in the morning, and park alongside GO trains, which separate trains and operators make the return trip? You can't be serious.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Not from Toronto. Across the Region of Waterloo. I don't know how this is not clear.
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
The big move says that Brampton is supposed to get all day service to Mount Pleasant. I didn't think I implied I thought it should not.
Have they built green lane yet?
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mpd618
Active Member
It isn't clear, because the subject is regional/commuter rail between the GTA and Waterloo Region. Waterloo Region has Grand River Transit (and soon enough, LRT) for trips within Waterloo Region. The major inter-region need in Kitchener-Waterloo is for faster and more service to Toronto and commuter service that brings people from Toronto to Kitchener-Waterloo; the major inter-region need in Cambridge is for commuter trains to Toronto.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
And I already said that anything more then 2 trains to Kitchener from Union was too much as the trip is 2 hours. And for reason already stated Cambridge won't see any service anytime soon. I was trying to make what I was saying clear, not divert the subject of the thread.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I don't think I'm alone in strongly disagreeing. 2 trains per direction is not enough for train service linking to major metropolitan areas 100 kilometres apart. Keep in mind that these are actual cities, not just bedroom communities for Toronto, so there is demand between each of them (KW-Guelph, KW-Brampton, Brampton-Guelph, etc).
There are 2 main reasons that the trip is over 2 hours:
1. There is tons of construction along the line, resulting in many slow zones.
2. Kitchener trains make every single stop along the way.
Starting in 2015, neither of these conditions will be true, and travel times will substantially decrease. By my estimates, we could reasonably expect to see travel times 20 minutes shorter than today.
If we add further projects to improve speeds along the line, particularly west of Georgetown, travel times could easily drop even further, making for a highly competitive rail service.
Even a 2 hour trip would be more attractive than existing bus service between Toronto and Kitchener. I live in Waterloo, and I'm heading to Toronto on Monday afternoon. It looks like my GO Transit bus trip will take around three hours. Even a 2 hour train ride would be attractive to me, but the last train departs Kitchener at around 7AM. Provide hourly service which takes 1h40 from Kitchener to Toronto, and I guarantee you will see reasonable ridership all day every day.
I have to also agree with the others in that there is no case for a new commuter agency, especially given GO Transit's shift from commuter rail to regional rail. Grand River Transit's service area encompasses all of Waterloo Region. Any commuter service within the region would obviously be within their jurisdiction.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
Most Toronto suburbs are not really "bedroom communities", a few even have more jobs than residents.
and Kitchener trains will have a sort of express style service in 2015? I didn't know that..
Remember that the drive (mid-day, no traffic) between Kitchener and Toronto is 1 hour. now of course it is rarely that fast because there is almost always traffic, but 1 hour service is what should really be the aim.
people who have taken GO to Kitchener, how fast does the train travel in the rural portions of the route? it should be the goal to get it up to 140km/h so the trains can minimize travel time.
and Kitchener trains will have a sort of express style service in 2015? I didn't know that..
Remember that the drive (mid-day, no traffic) between Kitchener and Toronto is 1 hour. now of course it is rarely that fast because there is almost always traffic, but 1 hour service is what should really be the aim.
people who have taken GO to Kitchener, how fast does the train travel in the rural portions of the route? it should be the goal to get it up to 140km/h so the trains can minimize travel time.
DKsan
Active Member
I've taken it several times. The trains blitzes from Kitchener to that really crappy section of Guelph, where it's basically slow as hell, then speed through Acton, Georgetown, to Mt. Pleasant.
TFC
Active Member
You mean East Gwillimbury GO? Yeah, its been built for a few years now.
Regarding creating a separate provincial transit agency for Waterloo Region, I don't see it happening...ever. What's the point of creating a competing provincial entity to Metrolin, if Metrolinx can fill that role?
I ride this section regularly, and I've tracked 90km/h between Guelph and Acton. I think that the speed can and should increase, considering that much of that stretch is very straight (save for some stretches through Acton and Rockway). The portion between Guelph Station and Guelph Jct. needs to be improved somehow. The number of at-grade crossings, not to mention the street parallel to the tracks being located a few feet from the tracks is a major roadblock to allowing GO trains to travel faster than the average human walking speed.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Are there any plans to upgrade the stretch in Guelph in order to remove the 'crawl point'? Seems like that would solve a lot of headaches.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Obviously upgrading the corridor solves a lot of issues. The biggest issues with the 2 trains they have now are the schedules. If we look at VIA scheduling it is easy to see where the issues lie:
- Toronto to Brampton - 34km in 35 minutes = 58km/h
- Brampton to Georgetown - 13km in 11 minutes = 71km/h
- Georgetown to Guelph - 32km in 25 minutes = 77km/h
- Guelph to Kitchener - 22km in 28 minutes = 47km/h
That Guelph to Kitchener average speed is abysmal and the Toronto to Brampton speed isn't much better. I'm hopeful that the Georgetown South Project will improve the Toronto to Brampton times once completed but serious investment needs to be put in between Kitchener and Guelph obviously. If the speed was improved I think demand would create the need for more trains. As it is, the demand is low and adding trains makes no sense despite talk of how "it is deserved".
- Toronto to Brampton - 34km in 35 minutes = 58km/h
- Brampton to Georgetown - 13km in 11 minutes = 71km/h
- Georgetown to Guelph - 32km in 25 minutes = 77km/h
- Guelph to Kitchener - 22km in 28 minutes = 47km/h
That Guelph to Kitchener average speed is abysmal and the Toronto to Brampton speed isn't much better. I'm hopeful that the Georgetown South Project will improve the Toronto to Brampton times once completed but serious investment needs to be put in between Kitchener and Guelph obviously. If the speed was improved I think demand would create the need for more trains. As it is, the demand is low and adding trains makes no sense despite talk of how "it is deserved".
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Sorry, that was an assumption on my part. But given that they will be adding trips, I would assume that they would introduce express service given that it would make the trip from Kitchener so much more competitive. As others have said, a 2 hour trip from Kitchener to Toronto is not acceptable. The reason we don't have express service now is that the total number of trips is limited by train storage and track capacity, so the Kitchener trains make all stops in order to accommodate demand at stations. These will no longer be constraints when we have multiple tracks operational.
1 hour would be a rather optimistic target, since that would require an average speed of 100 km/h, which is in the territory of intercity rail. Even some VIA trains in southern Ontario do not achieve this. The Toronto-Windsor service only averages 96 km/h, despite its generally high speed limits (80-100 mph) and few stops. The fastest commuter rail service in North America is the New Jersey Northeast Corridor Express service, which averages 95 km/h. Given that trains should at least stop at Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, Mount Dennis and Union (20km average spacing), I don't think 100 km/h average speed is achievable.
But we can absolutely make huge improvements over our current average speed: a miserable 52 km/h. Of the North American commuter rail lines I surveyed, the Kitchener line was in the bottom rung along with frequent-stop lines such as CalTrain and the AMT Deux-Montagnes, with the absolute slowest line being the meandering GO Richmond Hill Line (44 km/h).
The top rung of express services on high-quality lines average in the 75-90 km/h range, like the CalTrain Baby Bullet, MARC Penn Line Express and MBTA Providence Line express. I think this range is more achievable given the stop spacing. At 80 km/h average, Kitchener-Toronto would take 1h17, which seems pretty darn competitive to me.
Here are the line speed limits to the best of my knowledge, noting where they will be raised as a part of the Georgetown South Project:
Kitchener-Brampton: 70 mph (113 km/h). This segment is home to the notorious 10mph speed limit between mileposts 48.8 and 49.8 in Guelph.
Brampton - Bramalea: 60 mph (97 km/h) - I don't know why this limit is so low. Maybe Vegeta can enlighten us.
Bramalea - Weston: 80 mph (129 km/h) - to be raised to 90 mph (145 km/h)
Weston - Bloor: 80 mph (129 km/h)
Bloor - King St: 55 mph (89 km/h) - to be raised to 80 mph (129 km/h)
King St - Union: 45 mph (72 km/h)
Within those segments there are numerous slow zones, which are largely due to construction which will be completed by 2015. There are other permanent slow zones, but they generally aren't that significant since they are still fairly high, or around important stations (for example: 80 km/h at Brampton and Georgetown stations, or 120 km/h through Weston Grade Separation).
As mentioned numerous times, the worst spot on the line is definitely that awful 10 mph (16 km/h) slow zone through Guelph. By my quick calculation, it alone delays trains by 5.4 minutes compared a consistent 70mph limit. Eliminating the slow zone (or at least raising it above the speed of trains decelerating for the station) would require significant construction, but is absolutely necessary if we intend the line to be a regional rail corridor.
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TFC
Active Member
Thanks for providing the speed limits and the areas that are to see speed limit increases! The train between Kitchener and Guelph is in fact faster than driving, despite the 10mph section. Over the length of the trip from Kitchener to Union, that slow section does increase the duration of the trip by at least 5 minutes.
I'm curious as to whether the speed limit between Kitchener and Georgetown could be increased through lower profile enhancements, such as tie replacements and welded track.
royalrivers
Active Member
VIA Rail in co-operation with Metrolinx have been working on installing CTC and upgrading sidings and crossings. With these upgrades, according to previous reports, additional 6 (?) trains can run along this route when this is done.