[TOareaFan]

There is talk of providing "tap off" locations at York Univeristy station, and provided you "tapped on" at Steeles West, highway 407, Downsview park, or Vaughan Centre immediately after transferring from another carrier (meaning a tap on another bus service in the last 2 hours or something), you would have your TTC fare placed back on your PRESTO card.

bit of a logistical nightmare, I guess, that would either be a lot of people lined up to tap off or a lot of tap off machines!

 

[reaperexpress]

bit of a logistical nightmare, I guess, that would either be a lot of people lined up to tap off or a lot of tap off machines!

If Presto can handle 3000-passenger GO trains arriving at Union every two minutes at rush hour, surely it can handle the demand for presto-using customers exiting the subway at some suburban stations. I've never experienced any issues using any of the countless other systems which have both check-in and check-out fare gates.

 

[nfitz]

There is talk of providing "tap off" locations at York Univeristy station, and provided you "tapped on" at Steeles West, highway 407, Downsview park, or Vaughan Centre immediately after transferring from another carrier (meaning a tap on another bus service in the last 2 hours or something), you would have your TTC fare placed back on your PRESTO card.

And who would be providing the $2.70 for TTC?

TTC made the deal that they'd cover all the operating cost for the subway without any special York or Ontario funding, on condition they get the subway fare.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^thats the worry, it hasn't been worked out yet how funding will work. Or any funding for the line for that matter, the TTC is going to need a fairly large hike in subsidy to operate the line in general from city hall. I can see Metrolinx paying for it (TTC collects how many fares paid, works out the cost and sends the bill), and splitting the costs with the carriers using the new connection. (ZUM, YRT, GO)

 

[TOareaFan]

If Presto can handle 3000-passenger GO trains arriving at Union every two minutes at rush hour, surely it can handle the demand for presto-using customers exiting the subway at some suburban stations. I've never experienced any issues using any of the countless other systems which have both check-in and check-out fare gates.

It handles the crowds because there are tons of machines and the majority of rush hour commuters have a regular trip programmed in and don't tap off.

That would not be the case at the York U subway station.

 

[nfitz]

^thats the worry, it hasn't been worked out yet how funding will work.

Much of it was laid out in the 2007 Memorandum of Understanding - appendix B to this City Report - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-3170.pdf

This includes:

10. The TTC will be responsible for the operation, maintenance, regulation and use of the subway system, including setting service levels.
11. The TTC will continue to establish fare policies for travel by subway.
12. The TTC will continue to be responsible for all subway-retail leasing.
13. All subway Fare Revenues will accrue to the TTC/City.​

When this went to council, David Miller added an amendment to the approving motion that:

a. the inter-regional benefits of the project and the operating cost risk to the City of Toronto until the line reaches mature ridership levels;
b. the intention of the TTC and York Region to negotiate a revenue-sharing agreement that would result in York University students travelling to/from York Region on the Spadina Subway paying a single fare and that the Province of Ontario would be responsible for any revenue loss associated
with the agreement; and
c. the intention of the TTC to also negotiate with York University and York Region for the provision of a U-Pass for York University students.​

If nothing is agreed, TTC will simply collect their $2.70. It's up to the province.

Or any funding for the line for that matter, the TTC is going to need a fairly large hike in subsidy to operate the line in general from city hall.

Fairly large fare hike? The report indicates that the projected operating cost of the subway within York Region would be $9 million per year, but that 80% of that should be recoverable from fares and other revenues. Therefore the fare increase would have to cover about $1.8 million a year. I believe last time, a 5-cent fare increase raised about $25 million. So this would require TTC fares to go up about 0.3 cents. Even if the entire $9 million came out of the fare increase, and the subway was free in York, the required fare increase would be trivial. It's certainly not a fairly large fare hike! It is only 2 stations after all.

I can see Metrolinx paying for it (TTC collects how many fares paid, works out the cost and sends the bill), and splitting the costs with the carriers using the new connection. (ZUM, YRT, GO)

I can't see either Brampton or YRT agreeing to that. YRT will be building a large terminal at Pioneer Village station, so presumably a lot of York Region students using transit will still be able to go direct to the University without using TTC.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

To be clear, I think the presumption underpinning all of this was that students were the ones rallying to save the York U GO station, because they would feel the pinch the most. I don't think there was an argument they should pay nothing. In fact, my argument for a co-fare (you know, like all other GTHA transit agencies have) applies to everyone. Student, maintenance worker, professor, whatever. And not just on the TYSSE, everywhere.

I think the City is fretting too much that they will lose too much revenue by doing it. I think they can make their money back easily by the additional ridership they could gain. Problem is the TTC probably doesn't have the capacity. Yeesh. Toronto transit eh?

 

[nfitz]

I think the City is fretting too much that they will lose too much revenue by doing it. I think they can make their money back easily by the additional ridership they could gain.

Why do you feel the expert have underestimated the ridership? What do you know that they don't? Is there something in the 2011 census data that changes things?

Problem is the TTC probably doesn't have the capacity.

Not enough capacity at the end of the line in York Region? The report indicated there was excess capacity. Why do you figure there'd be no capacity?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Why do you feel the expert have underestimated the ridership? What do you know that they don't? Is there something in the 2011 census data that changes things?

Not enough capacity at the end of the line in York Region? The report indicated there was excess capacity. Why do you figure there'd be no capacity?

I was speaking system-wide.

 

[gweed123]

To be clear, I think the presumption underpinning all of this was that students were the ones rallying to save the York U GO station, because they would feel the pinch the most. I don't think there was an argument they should pay nothing. In fact, my argument for a co-fare (you know, like all other GTHA transit agencies have) applies to everyone. Student, maintenance worker, professor, whatever. And not just on the TYSSE, everywhere.

I think the City is fretting too much that they will lose too much revenue by doing it. I think they can make their money back easily by the additional ridership they could gain. Problem is the TTC probably doesn't have the capacity. Yeesh. Toronto transit eh?

Agreed. The interim solution would be a tap off at York U only using Presto, where the TTC fare would be added back onto the card. Ditto if someone taps onto a Viva or Züm bus after having tapped on originally at York U Station.

Long term, the solution is either a region-wide zone fare system, or straight fare-by-distance using Presto tap on and tap off points.

 

[TOareaFan]

Agreed. The interim solution would be a tap off at York U only using Presto, where the TTC fare would be added back onto the card. Ditto if someone taps onto a Viva or Züm bus after having tapped on originally at York U Station.

Long term, the solution is either a region-wide zone fare system, or straight fare-by-distance using Presto tap on and tap off points.

I can't wait to see what Yonge and Bloor looks like with Presto adopted and a tapping off regime in place!

 

[Platform 27]

I can't wait to see what Yonge and Bloor looks like with Presto adopted and a tapping off regime in place!

Presumably not hugely different than any one of the numerous London Underground stations that have more entries and exits per day than Yonge-Bloor with a tap-off regime in place?

 

[TOareaFan]

Presumably not hugely different than any one of the numerous London Underground stations that have more entries and exits per day than Yonge-Bloor with a tap-off regime in place?

Ok...I'll take your word for that (been close to 20 years since I was in London). Do they use payment cards on buses too? Do people have to tap off of buses? Are the taps on the bus or at the stop? How does it affect bus service? (all honest questions....not intended to be snarky although the interweb may present them to you that way )

 

[reaperexpress]

I can't wait to see what Yonge and Bloor looks like with Presto adopted and a tapping off regime in place!

Given that the TTC currently operates as Pay As You Enter, it would make most sense to tap on/off when entering and leaving the system, in comparison to Proof Of Purchase (such as GO) where you'd tap on and off of each vehicle.

Distance-based Presto wouldn't make much difference to the congestion at Bloor/Yonge, since the bulk of people are changing trains, not entering/leaving the system.

And if the fare system only had 2 zones, it would be possible to charge 2 zones to everyone by default, and refund 1 zone to people who only use that many. That way long-distance travellers (which make up a huge proportion of passengers at rush hour, from my impression) wouldn't need to tap out.

 

[chriskayTO]

Ok...I'll take your word for that (been close to 20 years since I was in London). Do they use payment cards on buses too? Do people have to tap off of buses? Are the taps on the bus or at the stop? How does it affect bus service? (all honest questions....not intended to be snarky although the interweb may present them to you that way )

In London you don't need to tap out for bus trips - you only need to for train/tube/DLR trips. However, many cities do require a tap on and off on buses, such as Singapore and Hong Kong. I've never seen any issue there.

I really don't get why people keep bringing up this red herring. Yes, I'm sure it will be a bit of a learning curve for some people, and the number of fare gates at certain locations will likely need to be adjusted, but it's not like it's an insurmountable challenge.