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I think it's also a crew scheduling issue too as well. Crews prefer to know something like 6 months in advance, if there's extra event trains happening.

A DVP closure, even a weekend one, is probably planned with less advance notice than a 12-months-ahead announcement of the next Nuit Blanche date.

Lakeshore West is different because it's got 30 minute all-day service, and there's enough flexibility in crews to throw an extra train in spontaneously, as they have at least one spare strategically placed for Lakeshore route standing by for unexpected problems and event surges.
 
The DVP is closed for Run for the Cure or something, right? That would definitely be known 6+ months ahead. And I have no problem with the City chipping in for the cost when it's their road is disrupting GO bus service.
 
I don't know why a DVP closure is the threshold we need in order to consider off-peak service. The DVP is packed every evening, 7 days a week, with people coming downtown for shows, sporting events, etc. And every weekend all day.

This route is amenable to 2WAD with only a few tweaks to current service - there are enough sidings that hourly trains are possible. The conflict with freight at Doncaster is a bit problemmatic, but who knows what is possible?

the optimal track routing may change with RER, but in the interim, it's a clear case of "If you run it, they will come".

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I don't know why a DVP closure is the threshold we need in order to consider off-peak service. The DVP is packed every evening, 7 days a week, with people coming downtown for shows, sporting events, etc. And every weekend all day.

This route is amenable to 2WAD with only a few tweaks to current service - there are enough sidings that hourly trains are possible. The conflict with freight at Doncaster is a bit problemmatic, but who knows what is possible?

the optimal track routing may change with RER, but in the interim, it's a clear case of "If you run it, they will come".

- Paul
Click to expand...

I don't think people were suggesting that the DVP closing is the only reason for 2way service....they were just wondering why it is possible in weekends like Nuit Blanche but on a weekend with lots going on downtown (including a jays game) and the DVP closed they could not add the service.

I would love to see the ridership numbers on those special Nuit Blanche trains on the various non Lakeshore lines. I would bet they are very low and that somewhere someone(s) at GO/ML will use that as "evidence" that those lines don't "deserve" off peak service....pointing to how busy the LS trains are on weekends/events but when they run these specials on other lines they are poorly used.

Using the KW line as an example....someone trying to use GO trains to attend the festival would be committing to attend the full thing......6 till 2 a.m.........same on the other lines, I presume. Nuit Blanche is not that type of thing......people with younger kids show up early and leave early, young adults show up late and stay later....the crowds build and change and morph through the night. If I was a 25 year old in Brampton a 5 pm train to Nuit Blanche would have no appeal to me.....if I was a 35 year old couple with a 7 year old and a 5 year old that 2 a.m. train home would have no appeal to me.

So yes, I expect those trains (particularly in comparison to LS ridership last night) would be very lightly used....it seemed an exercise in appeasement rather than actually adding useful service (which, by the way has to be regular not just plopped down during one off events...people have to get used to the fact that trains exist...not everyone is a UT member or follows Anne Marie Aikins on twitter or regularly checks the GO app).
 
TOareaFan said:
So yes, I expect those trains (particularly in comparison to LS ridership last night) would be very lightly used....it seemed an exercise in appeasement rather than actually adding useful service (which, by the way has to be regular not just plopped down during one off events...people have to get used to the fact that trains exist
Click to expand...

Totally agree.

One has to be careful about numbers, however. An evening 2 way service will never have good looking numbers. Not that many people want to come downtown at 22:00. The inbound trains will be empty, but the outbound ridership is potentially substantial.

Way back when, the old CP commuter service in Montreal had a really good evening service pattern. Basically there was one train that prowled the line in evening. Downtown departures happened at 19:00, 21:00. 23:00 ish. That captured an outbound ridership consisting of people who stayed downtown working late, and people who had come into the downtown for the evening. All ticket sales except downtown were on train. A key was that there was good into-town service in early evening so people could use the service to come into town for events.

I would think a similar pattern would work on GTA lines - 19:30, 21:00, 23:15, and maybe 00:30 is as close to hourly as is really needed.

I have commented before, but I will say again - I have found the level of abject drunkenness on LSW late in the evening to be a big deterrent to using GO with my spouse for shows, etc. The 19-to-25 crowd seems to laugh it off as part of the night's fun. I'm generally not that prudish, but vomit on my transit ride and I'm pressing the yellow strip.

...not everyone is a UT member or follows Anne Marie Aikins on twitter or regularly checks the GO app).
Click to expand...

True....there's all those Ford Nation members out there cursing the urban elites ;-)

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I don't know why a DVP closure is the threshold we need in order to consider off-peak service. The DVP is packed every evening, 7 days a week, with people coming downtown for shows, sporting events, etc. And every weekend all day.

This route is amenable to 2WAD with only a few tweaks to current service - there are enough sidings that hourly trains are possible. The conflict with freight at Doncaster is a bit problemmatic, but who knows what is possible?

the optimal track routing may change with RER, but in the interim, it's a clear case of "If you run it, they will come".

- Paul
Click to expand...

And with what ridership?

GO hasn't run weekend bus service on the Richmond Hill corridor in a long time - maybe 15 years or more. If they can't justify running buses, how are they going to justify running trains?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
And with what ridership?

GO hasn't run weekend bus service on the Richmond Hill corridor in a long time - maybe 15 years or more. If they can't justify running buses, how are they going to justify running trains?.
Click to expand...

Dan, I obviously don't have a researched, data-based answer to that, but it seems illogical that people on LSE/LSW lines are so inclined to take the train into the city where people on other lines aren't. The volume of cars on the DVP is the proof there is a potential market.

I don't really understand why GO limits the weekend Newmarket service to summer. There's an example where good ridership numbers (my impression, I haven't seen actual stats) seem to instantly appear when trains are run. A sustained service would do even better.

_ Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Dan, I obviously don't have a researched, data-based answer to that, but it seems illogical that people on LSE/LSW lines are so inclined to take the train into the city where people on other lines aren't.
Click to expand...
With consistent commuter and off-peak services on the Lakeshore lines running back to the 1800s, it's entirely possible that those who are more inclined to take the train, have chosen to live closer to the Lakeshore line.

And the Richmond Hill station locations and travel time is such, that it doesn't encourage much ridership, especially off-peak. It's certainly the weekday route with the least demand.
 
I think Metrolinx don't want the hassle of going to bat with CN for any more Richmond Hill service than will bring a big return, but they own Stouffville. I guess they could claim double tracking work needs all available weekends, but then pesky railfans might go and check.
 
dowlingm said:
The DVP is closed for Run for the Cure or something, right? That would definitely be known 6+ months ahead. And I have no problem with the City chipping in for the cost when it's their road is disrupting GO bus service.
Click to expand...

The DVP was not closed for "Run for Cure", though a whole bunch of other roads were. It is closed only for that idiotic "Ride for Heart" and some sort of triathlon and for annual construction. The DVP closure for construction was last weekend.

The sooner John Tory can convince council to cancel the vast majority of the silly events that shut down DVP, Gardiner, Lake Shore, King St, etc. the better. This has got to be by far the easiest way to improve the terrible traffic in this city and costs the city absolutely nothing (probably saves them a bit of money for policing costs, etc.). I do not care if it is "For Heart" or "For Cure" or whatever, closing major roads must cost the economy millions, far more than the amount those silly events raise. Also I would really like it if John Tory could figure out how to do the Gardiner/DVP closures at night rather than on weekends. Provincial highways are almost never closed for an entire day or two on weekends for construction.
 
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