[nfitz]

GO construction, then?
GO electrification probably needs its own thread, for the non-fantasy stuff found in actual Metrolinx plans/documents.

There is a GO electrification thread - http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/go-transit-electrification-metrolinx-proposed.20729/

Useful link on twitter regardless -- the post still needs to be moved somewhere proper --
I've clicked "Report" on my own post to try to expedite some advice.
The post certainly belongs somewhere here (and if it needs edits, so be it) -- but I'm genuinely not sure where it belongs.


None were taken over:
The only mistake I made was just only simply posting them in UP Express thread.

Major correction to nfitz:
1. I moved them over there instead. It's not in UP Express anymore. (Maybe you didn't notice)
2. It's more ontopic here than in the UP Express thread.
3. The station development/comparison images are new content I haven't posted before today.
4. I have only posted it in UPX thread, and removed/moved it over here once someone pointed out, and I agreed it should be moved from the UPX thread which is exactly what I did (both you and I liked this post) and moved the images here instead.

nfitz, Please choose thread for this image which will not be deleted
[1] Keep in this thread
[2] Move to GO construction
[3] Move to a brand new thread.
I welcome a moderator to chime in on the ultimte location of this new image content that has already received likes before I moved my Aldershot Electrification posts here.

Pick your preference/poison, nfitz.
There is no option [D] unless a moderator chimes in.
(Shontron et cetra, any advice?)

I'm really not sure what you are on about. What are you correcting me on?

What's wrong with using the electrification thread to discuss electrification? You've posted in it before ...

 

[mdrejhon]

Oh.

GO Electrification -- last post Feb 17th, 2016! Fell off the screen. No wonder I forgot.

Obviously, it fell off the radar before the GO RER Business Plan got posted by all of us (myself included, and others) in other threads rather than that one.

(reaperexpress, all said and done -- given the multifaceted post -- the kerfuffle portion may verily be indeed a waste of time, though electrification for/against argument belongs somewhere given the light of the new docs. And yes reaperexpress/nfitz, in retrospect, either Construction or Electrification thread is where the useful portions, minus the kerfuffle portions, of my post should have been, all along.)
(Ugh, having some difficulty trying to quickly move my post due to its attachments.)

 

[ssiguy2]

Although I understand the need for a RER type system, I have my doubts as to whether it will be successful or not.

The reality is that Toronto already has a GO RER system up and running...........it's called UPX. Patrons couldn't really care less if a train is electrified or runs on rockets as long as it's fast, comfortable, and reliable,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh, and affordable.
The UPX is a now a RER train with GO fares running every 15 minutes all day each way exactly what RER is suppose to be but it just hasn't got the wires yet. When you consider this, the results so far are not very rosy.

The UPX has certainly increased ridership levels but still a relatively pathetic 5,000 to 6,000 riders a day which is hardly a decent bus route. What makes Metrolinx think that by adding wires all of a sudden people will flock to it? Yes it will get more stations but I don't see that helping much. You would think this would make Metrolinx {and Queen's Park} more cautious around the business case for a RER system because the one line they have running is not drawing in the crowds and nor will it until Metrolinx finally acknowledges that people need to be able to afford the service you are offering them. The trains could run every 3 minutes but it wouldn't increase ridership by anything more than negligible.

A RER system might be nice but nice doesn't mean it's accessible. This is suppose to be MASS transit and unless the fares are geared towards those masses, Toronto will end up with a comprehensive RER system that serves few and bleeds red ink. A car dealer can offer a buy-one-get-one-free deal on all it's BMWs but if you can't afford the price of the BMW in the first place then they will still have to go for the Chevy.

 

[robmausser]

The UPX isn't even close to being RER.

GO fares running every 15 minutes all day each way exactly what RER is suppose to be but it just hasn't got the wires yet.

This gets so misquoted so often it makes my blood boil.

Its not running every 15 minutes, its AT LEAST every 15 minutes. There is expected to be trains up to every 5 minutes during peak periods.

Currently the UPX is every 15 minutes always. THIS IS NOT WHAT RER WILL BE AND PLEASE STOP SAYING THIS. I feel like Metrolinx really goofed saying "trains at least every 15 minutes" because it gets misquoted all the time like this will be the maximum. Its the minimum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Secondly, the UPX has 3 stops, whereas Metrolinx is looking for many many more stops along the GO system, which will of course make RER much more attractive to riders.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...-locations-for-go-transit-expansion-1.3240645

Thirdly, even though users are not really aware of the type of vehicle they are on it still makes a difference. The acceleration profile of an EMU is much greater than a DMU, and this will make a difference in travel times and the feeling to the user that this is a "subway-like" level of service.

Lastly, fare integration is being examined and this is the last point where I will conceded that unless people within the area that the TTC serves (downtown) are allowed to transfer to RER for a very minimal fee, then it will not indeed be successful.

However, one has to only look to the successes of the express TTC buses, which do cost extra, to see that people are willing to shell out a bit more money for a quicker ride across town.

If they will do it for a bus, the most unattractive transit mode to riders, they will certainly do it for an express train.

 

[jcam]

As an UP rider daily, I can confidently say there are MANY new faces getting on at Weston and a lot more people getting on at Bloor than ever did with the GO trains. As for UPX being RER, in addition to the points above, you're only pulling commuters from 2 stations already within the City limits....RER will have much bigger catchments.

 

[mdrejhon]

Although I understand the need for a RER type system, I have my doubts as to whether it will be successful or not.

A RER stubway with fewer stations than Sheppard subway? Apples versus oranges.

A faint apples-to-apples comparison arises -- the new fare-discounted UPX is attracting a lot more Union-direction riders at Bloor than GO trains did, and Bloor isn't even remotely Mobility Hub freindly (yet) at all.

 

[gweed123]

UPX is RER in the same way that Bud Light is beer. It barely meets the technical definition for inclusion in that category, and really isn't indicative of their best/truest applications. Saying RER will fail because UPX isn't doing well is like saying all beer sucks because you tried and didn't like Bud Light.

 

[MisterF]

Fare integration is essential for a real RER system and just as important as the actual service improvements.

UPX is RER in the same way that Bud Light is beer. It barely meets the technical definition for inclusion in that category, and really isn't indicative of their best/truest applications. Saying RER will fail because UPX isn't doing well is like saying all beer sucks because you tried and didn't like Bud Light.

UPX is RER in the same way that Boston Pizza is a restaurant.
UPX is RER in the same way that the Mustang is a sports car.
UPX is RER in the same way that Mississauga is a city.

This is fun.

 

[dowlingm]

RER will be every five minutes when minutes become 180 seconds long. Meanwhile, GO can't keep people's cars off the track. https://twitter.com/GOtransit/status/722105642413121537

 

[ssiguy2]

OK, let's say that the UPX is the bare minimum of what RER will be. So what?

You guys seem to think like Metrolinx...................that if you offer a service people will take it. Making a system available and making it accessible are 2 VERY different things. For the vast majority of Torontonians, GO is not accessible which is why it suffers from such lousy ridership in the city itself.

As far as the "there will be fare integration" excuse, where exactly are you getting your info from? As it stands right now it is going to be a big battle and the TTC has absolutely nothing to gain by offering it. Metrolinx can make recommendations till the cows come home but fares are 100% within the domain of the cities themselves. As it currently stands there is absolutely no reason to think that the TTC will consider any form of fare integration.

Let's pretend that the fairy god mother decides to pay the TTC for fare integration just for the fun of it to continue the scenario. Fare integration will still result in minimal ridership increases because it is too expensive for the masses. Metrolinx is intent on creating a 2 tiered transit system................good service for those with money and a painfully slow and crowded system for everyone else. This 2 tiered system is also grossly unfair in terms of infrastructure investments. RER/GO is getting a crap load of money to primarily serve middle/high end customers. Metrolinx tried the "build it and they will come" mindset with the UPX and we know how that has worked out. Now the fares are down to a GO fare and even from Weston and/or Bloor the ridership is still pathetic when you consider how many people would use the line if they could just use their Metropass.

Toronto's RER will be a failure as long as Metrolinx stands firm on it's 2 tiered system and this is why other cities with similar RER/suburban rail systems do not employ it. Logic and equity dictates that fares should be based on distances {zones are the most logical and easiest to understand} and not on what type of rail track you happen to be riding on or if you decide to use a rubber wheeled vehicle instead.

Just because you build something doesn't mean it will get used as there has to be demand and most of that relies on the system being not only physically but also financially accessible and Metrolinx seems to believe that money is not an issue for the average person but of course that is not be the case.

 

[Megaton327]

OK, let's say that the UPX is the bare minimum of what RER will be. So what?

You guys seem to think like Metrolinx...................that if you offer a service people will take it. Making a system available and making it accessible are 2 VERY different things. For the vast majority of Torontonians, GO is not accessible which is why it suffers from such lousy ridership in the city itself.

GO isn't just inaccessible downtown. I lived downtown for several years but recently moved back to Aurora, I'm about a 5 minute drive from Aurora GO. The current situation for getting to/from the GO station is not great for me: we have 5 southbound trains every 30 minutes in the AM peak, by the second-last one which gets to Union at about 8:30, parking is very scarce--you generally need to show up at least 15-20 minutes before the train; if you want to take the last train, there is generally not a single space left anywhere in the station from the moment the previous train departs--there is some limited legal street parking nearby, but it's several minutes' walk and the Town is rapidly making >3-hour parking illegal on all of the nearby streets one by one due to complaints by residents about GO users taking up street parking spaces. A handful of spaces sporadically open up around the station as the day goes on due to some people taking the bus home from Union, so that generally allows a few people to park and take the bus down (the nearby highway carpool lot, the bus' next major stop and its last before Union, is similarly full most of the day).

Now, I know everybody is probably groaning that I'm driving to the GO station and parking, and I agree--I'd absolutely love to get there another way, but it's simply not feasible. From my home, it's about a 30 minute walk to the GO station; alternatively it's about a 10 minute bike ride (these numbers are Google Maps based, as I've neither walked nor biked there personally) but it's a pretty constant uphill and I'm not a great cyclist so long uphills are a no-go for me. Also, they keep pushing people to do things like bike to the station--currently nobody does it, but there are currently maybe 20 total bike parking spaces/locking posts at the station, so if people were to actually start they'd run out of room fast.

Transit isn't a great option either, though I do use it occasionally--I am very fortunate that one of the YRT's Aurora routes servicing the GO station stops about a 1-minute walk from my home. However, that bus 1) does not operate at all on Sundays, 2) dose not operate on Saturdays, thought it is replaced by dial-a-ride, where you have to call at least an hour in advance and they send basically a contracted taxi to pick you up, and 3) on weekdays it does not operate after about 7PM, and otherwise operates hourly from about 10 AM to 3 PM and about half-hourly otherwise. Worse than that, it's scheduled to arrive at the GO station, during the midday hours, 1 minute before the southbound GO bus departs, and it doesn't actually enter the station so it's about a 1 minute walk to the GO bus platform! So unless GO is late, even if the YRT is exactly on time you're treated to a nice view of the taillights of the GO bus and have to wait half an hour for the next one. For the evening train connection home, the bus usually idles in the bus loop for about 5-10 minutes after the train has come and gone, with the driver in it and the door closed while passengers are waiting--really fun when it's -20 outside--then when it comes, it does of course take quite a bit longer than driving, so overall with the wait and its route/stops it probably takes me about 30 minutes vs 5 for driving to get home from the station.

So, if RER is to work Metrolinx needs to seriously figure out station accessibility. I keep hearing they want people to take local transit to the station, but there is no local transit much of the time, and at other times it's infrequent, poorly scheduled, and offers a poor customer experience. They need to get local transit operators on board, somehow, with actually running proper transit to and from GO stations--and it the RER trains are every 15 minutes most of the day 7 days a week, my weekdays-only often-hourly route had best become 15 minutes 7 days a week. If they fail to do so, driving will simply remain the better choice to most suburban commuters.

 

[TOareaFan]

^that sounds, with respect, like an issue to raise with YRT....no?

I would be careful with the words "suburban commuter" when you can/do really only speak to the York region/Aurora situation. I only use GO for ~ 30-40% of my commutes now....but it has been several years (lost count now) since I drove to my station...some suburban locations seem to have figured out that providing service to GO stations is a good way to drive ridership apparently.

I think your points are legit, and well articulated....but perhaps a bit broad in their scope.

 

[Megaton327]

^that sounds, with respect, like an issue to raise with YRT....no?

I would be careful with the words "suburban commuter" when you can/do really only speak to the York region/Aurora situation. I only use GO for ~ 30-40% of my commutes now....but it has been several years (lost count now) since I drove to my station...some suburban locations seem to have figured out that providing service to GO stations is a good way to drive ridership apparently.

I think your points are legit, and well articulated....but perhaps a bit broad in their scope.

Metrolinx is constantly releasing various studies/documents saying they want people to take local transit to GO stations, and that parking is not sustainable at the current rate of increase in the long term, and that passengers need to partially shift to using local transit. If Metrolinx is saying it, they need to be prepared to do something about it--the Government of Ontario, perhaps, can specifically fund GO-connecting services for various local transit operators such as YRT. Yes, at the end of the day, the operation of that local service is done by YRT, but Metrolinx is raising the issue of wanting people to take local transit, so they need to put their money where their mouths are.

Regarding the words "suburban commuter", the only place I used it was when I said "If they fail to [provide better local transit connections], driving will simply remain the better choice to most suburban commuters." If you look at GO/Metrolinx documents what I said is factually correct--the majority of GO users *do* drive to and park at the GO station. At many suburban stations it is not only a majority, but something like 75% park, 15% pickup/dropoff, 10% other (e.g. local transit)--I believe Aurora GO's numbers were somewhere around that. I never claimed I speak for every single suburban commuter at every GO station 100% of whom drive, I simply said most suburban GO riders don't use local transit, and if you examine the reasons for that, while there is 100% a pro-car/anti-transit mindset for many suburban residents, and that's a result of a lot of factors that there is simply not a quick and easy way to reverse, at the end of the day there is simply not good local transit service being provided.

 

[ssiguy2]

Megaton327 raises a very point about being able to access the RER stations. If transit to the stations is inadequate and slow during rush hours then imagine how difficult it will be in off-peak times and at night.

 

[TOareaFan]

Megaton327 raises a very point about being able to access the RER stations. If transit to the stations is inadequate and slow during rush hours then imagine how difficult it will be in off-peak times and at night.

There will be issues getting people to use ReR in the off peak middle of the day trips if a) there is inadequate parking AND b) inadequate transit options....at night and on weekends there will likely be no issue as those peak office hour trains that fill the lots at GO stations with parked cars will have a high percentage of their drivers being elsewhere.

My only issues with Megatron327's posts are that they are too broad some communities have provided adequate transit to and from their GO stations.....the fact that the percentages still favour the car is likely based on two facts...

1. with the limited service on most lines, most people are targetting the earlier trains and there is a heavy bias towards driving up to that point where parking becomes unavailable (anecdotally, notice the increased amount of reserved parking spots at GO stations lately....people are expressing a strong preference to driving and willingness to pay $90/mth to ensure they can) even when there is good/decent transit service
2. people prefer to drive.....as i noted, I don't drive to my station....my station has very good suburban public transit...but I am still in the minority of people at that station who use it to get to their trains.....(more anecdotal stuff....I know people in my 'hood who drive to stations further afield where there is better parking and think I am nuts for taking public transit to the station).