[robmausser]

Wait, GO RER doesn't stop at all stations?

Re-read what I said.

GO RER will stop at all stations, at least within the GO RER area.

Its the express commuter trains from Barrie (non RER) that will bypass all the GO RER stations.

So the Barrie Line would look something like this.

From Barrie: An electric locomotive pull 10 Bi-levels stops at all stations from Allandalle Waterfront to Aurora. Then it runs express, bypassing all stations to Union. This means people will actually benefit from GO-RER who don't even take it, their commute will be faster than before. If someone needs to get to a station in between, they will transfer to the GO RER system at Aurora. 90% of people go to Union though.

From Aurora: A GO RER train 6 car EMU runs from Aurora and stops at every station between it and Union.

The reasoning for removing stations is that the people who take the GO long distances, from Kitchener, Barrie, Oshawa etc, will have slower commutes because all the stations add up. This was the focus of the backlash on Kirby and Lawrence East station recently.

This viewpoint is flawed because it neglects the very fact that none of these trains from these areas will be stopping at the new stations. Also it neglected the fact that the new EMU trains that will stop at all stations will have much better acceleration and can get up to speed quicker than the current trains, meaning an extra stop is negligible on their performance. The study looked at the current GO system and simply plopped new stations onto it. It didn't take into account how the nature of GO RER will transform the network.

 

[steveintoronto]

So Del Duca finally screwed up bad enough for media attention. Can't Wynne replace the guy?

Without getting into the politics of it, wrong string. yes, she can. And if she wants to scrape through next election, she better dump him fast. Or the doubtful possibility that he becomes man enough to step down...that one of his announcements I'll actually watch...

Where the Public lynch Il Duce...sorry, couldn't help it. He's got to go...no pun intended...

From Barrie: An electric locomotive pull 10 Bi-levels stops at all stations from Allandalle Waterfront to Aurora.

Not the plan, they are to remain diesel, electrified only (Is it Aurora IIRC?)

This viewpoint is flawed because it neglects the very fact that none of these trains from these areas will be stopping at the new stations. Also it neglected the fact that the new EMU trains that will stop at all stations will have much better acceleration and can get up to speed quicker than the current trains, meaning an extra stop is negligible on their performance. The study looked at the current GO system and simply plopped new stations onto it. It didn't take into account how the nature of GO RER will transform the network.

This is very true. The VIA string has hosted chart examinations of this, and I alluded to some recent articles on it...in another string? lol...I'll reference it when I find it again...

I think what's irking (rightly so) many folks on the Kirby, Lawrence East, et al stations is the redundancy and *negative affect* on ridership. Remember, if these were as happy and productive as you claim, and I agree, *but not in the context of the present brooha* then why did the staff recommend and the board initially vigorously rule against them?

Il Duce has a lot of explaining to do, and so far, all I hear is whimpering and snivelling...he'd best step down...soon.

 

[steveintoronto]

You might not get a chance to measure acceleration to highest speeds much longer reaper. They're implementing a fuel efficiency policy which will gradually be put into effect. The plan is for trains to accelerate normally coming out of a station until they reach a preset speed. Once that speed is reached trains will throttle off and cruise into the next station.

What about on time performance you ask? Well with the amount of schedule padding in place its quite easy to maintain the schedule. These days its more important now to get to the station on time to hit performance measures then to get people there as fast as possible.

It's an excellent point, save that the consequence of increased fuel use on EMUs for more rapid acceleration is returned to a much higher degree as regenerated power.

Got excellent results Googling on this, I'll just need to quote the IEEE (Engineer's) overview:

Abstract:
This paper presents advantageous features of the distributed traction systems, or Electric Multiple Units, and application of power electronics technology to the Shinkansen High-speed train. The EMUs have many advantages such as the energy saving by regenerative brake, high-speed running on steep gradient routes with high adhesive force, and others. Historically, the Japanese highspeed train system, Shinkansen, has employed the EMU system, and furthermore, it has adopted the AC regenerative braking system and the asynchronous motor driving system for the traction system since the Series 300 in 1990. The current flagship Series N700 Shinkansen train employs the train-draft-cooling power converter with the low-switching-loss IGBT. This contributes to realizing a quarter of weight/power ratio of the traction system and a half of energy consumption, compared with the Series 0, the first-generation Shinkansen. In this paper, as a future development of innovative lightweight technologies, a permanent magnet synchronous traction motor (PMSM) is also introduced.
Published in: Power Electronics Conference (IPEC), 2010 International
[...]

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5542320/
This paper is seven years out of date, and the technology is much the same, but it has become far more widespread, typical, and affordable. (and further miniaturized) And some aspects of components are even more efficient now (choppers, re-integrators, three-phase reconstitution, etc). Solar cell arrays have driven a lot of that. A work shop, small factory can now get 'cleaner' triple phase feed from their solar-cell arrays on the roof than they can from street triple-phase feed.

Electric makes even more sense if the diesels are being throttled back. I also suspect that clean air regs are involved in that too. Tier IV claims are highly suspect....

 

[micheal_can]

The difference between a DMU and an EMU is one of them carries a generator. The EMU is lighter due to not carrying the generator. This means it will always win in a fuel consumption race. The diesel engine is not driving the wheels.

 

[steveintoronto]

The EMU is lighter due to not carrying the generator. This means it will always win in a fuel consumption race.

There's a bit more to it than just that. For 25kVAC, 50 or 60 cycles per sec (the de-facto high-voltage modern international standard for electrication) the needed "traction transformer" added a large amount of weight to electric locos and EMUs. With modern techniques (solid state switching and HV rectification) that weight has been drastically reduced. So for any comparison, it's necessary to have the most up-to-date reference.

As a point to consider for comparison, if your computer didn't have a "switching supply" (universal in modern computers), it would weigh more than double the typical computer weight by necessitating a 60 cycle power transformer. In the past, many electric locos and EMUs had to carry xfrmrs for 25 cycle and 16 2/3 cycles per sec catenary cupply. The weight doesn't double as the cycle rate halves, it goes up geometrically. Solid state supplies radically alter that factor.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Markham - Mount Joy is the closest station, at 1.9km from accessible platform to accessible platform.

The entire Barrie line is planned to be electrified, so no diesels on that line.

 

[steveintoronto]

Markham - Mount Joy is the closest station, at 1.9km from accessible platform to accessible platform.

By way of comparison, what is it for Exhibition to Union?

The entire Barrie line is planned to be electrified, so no diesels on that line.

I may have posted wrong reference on that prior.

By 2025, planned service levels on the Barrie GO line under the GO RER program includes two-way service every 15 minutes between Union Station and Aurora Station, two-way service every 60 minutes between Union Station and Allandale Waterfront Station during the midday and evening periods of weekdays as well as on weekends, and peak-period, peak-direction service on weekdays, at frequencies of every 30 minutes, between Union Station and Allandale Waterfront Station. The entire line will also be electrified.

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2017/06/major-upgrades-coming-to-the-barrie-go-line.html

Fortunately Hydro One have xmssn corridors close by to supply the northern end of the line.

 

[robmausser]

The difference between a DMU and an EMU is one of them carries a generator. The EMU is lighter due to not carrying the generator. This means it will always win in a fuel consumption race. The diesel engine is not driving the wheels.

Not always true. The UPX DMU trains use a gearbox. The diesel engine directly drives the wheels though a mechanical gearbox.

The UPX is essentially a railbus.

 

[innsertnamehere]

By way of comparison, what is it for Exhibition to Union?

I may have posted wrong reference on that prior.

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2017/06/major-upgrades-coming-to-the-barrie-go-line.html

Fortunately Hydro One have xmssn corridors close by to supply the northern end of the line.

about 3.2km.

The distance is more equivalent as if there was a station at Bathurst compared to Union.

 

[JasonParis]

Peruzza is wrong in saying that GO "has never really closed a station in their network." Apart from service cutbacks that eliminated train service to Barrie and Guelph (since restored), GO closed Lorne Park Station not long after beginning operations.

Curious why Lorne Park was closed? Community opposition? Low ridership?

 

[ShonTron]

Curious why Lorne Park was closed? Community opposition? Low ridership?

A bit more complicated than that. Lorne Park was the old CN commuter station, and locals did not want to move to Clarkson, which had room to build a parking lot. Early on, GO served both the new Clarkson GO Station, and the old Lorne Park CN Station, with one train a day in each direction serving Lorne Park and skipping Clarkson. Eventually enough people switched to the location with the better schedule (it's 1960s Mississauga, just about everyone had cars anyway), and Lorne Park was closed.

It was community opposition that kept it open once GO took over the CN commuter run. Low ridership killed it.

 

[steveintoronto]

I believe they dont have a mechanical gear box on their version of the trains, but hydraulic instead. Some of the issues with the UPX trains were with the gearbox, so they shouldn't have similar problems to this.

I see the specs for the Marin SMART ones being the same transmission, complete with regenerative energy recovery through a take-off on the transmission (used for hotel use, not primary drive).

The UPX DMU trains use a gearbox. The diesel engine directly drives the wheels though a mechanical gearbox.

Not the case. The ZF 6-spd gearbox is a combination of both, but it is technically a "fluid drive", there's no *practical* way you could get smooth shifting without it, a clunk would be felt and heard with each shift otherwise. You can hear it's fluid when the vehicle starts from a full stop, and the engine revs while the vehicle moves, and then the revs drop as speed is gained, even before shifting.

The final drive is through a capstan shaft to the bogies, that is mechanical rather than traction motors, it saves weight, but it has problems of its own. That ZF transmission, btw, is derived from bus ones, where it has been highly successful.

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/products/further_product_ranges/rail_vehicles/rail_vehicles.html

The distance is more equivalent as if there was a station at Bathurst compared to Union.

Those two stops aforementioned are really close then.

 

[micheal_can]

Since the Line 1 extension is set to open in December, why not leave the York U station open till the end of the school year, and open the new station at Downsview Park? Change the transit to York U and see if that GO station is still used.

 

[TOareaFan]

 

[Allandale25]

Might be better to continue the Kirby discussion in the Metrolinx Construction or Catch All Thread. However, another tweet Ben sent out was "His spokesperson tells me "the Minister has nothing new to add until the process has run its course through Metrolinx." So this will now be the third time Kibry is reviewed? The other thing we don't know is how long this review will take place, who will be involved, and what new information will be presented. Presumably the City of Vaughan will try to argue there are a lot of new residents coming to the station area but as folks here have pointed out, the area is constrained because of the Greenbelt.

Were the results of the second review (the "alternative assessment") ever put on the Metrolinx website? Or is only the original review there?