[dowlingm]

The Liberal govt's proposal of taking over the subway would solve that issue from a funding perspective, as would the NDP's pledge to restore 50% provincial funding to the TTC.

About that:
https://twitter.com/SwanBoatSteve/status/979219730547568641

 

[smallspy]

I understand and stated that that Phil Verster wants to implement this. I feel that the reason it wasn't started before has far less to do with track/switch/freight/maintenance limitations and much more to do with the status quo, in that GO has been envisioned for most of its history as peak period regional transportation to Union station. That that's being challenged only now as opposed to decades ago highlights a systemic issue of perhaps not dreaming big enough. I'm glad that that's showing signs of changing now, but those changes start with calls from people like gweed123.

I think that you're putting way too much weight into what Verster can and can't do.

For instance, this upcoming schedule change was supposed to be radically different. There was going to be 15 minute mid-day service from Union to Oshawa. An additional hourly service from Union to Oakville, on top of the existing half-hourly service to Aldershot. Limited mid-day service on the Richmond Hill Line as far as Old Cummer. Instead, we get some minor adjustments to Barrie service. (The additional early and late Lakeshore service was already planned.)

So, what happened?

CN is still dispatching the lines, and put the kybosh on any major improvements for the time being due to their own operating and staffing issues. This is something that simply can't be fixed by GO in the short term - CN needs to deal with it themselves.

Later this year, this should change once GO is able to start dispatching their own lines. All of those service improvements should be able to be instituted, as they will no longer need to rely on CN dispatching the track that Metrolinx owns.

But don't kid yourself - plans like this have existed for years. 15 minute - RER - service, for instance. GO had ideas as early as the mid-1980s to run trains from Union to Cherry St. (where a new station would have been built) and to Exhibition or Mimico on their way into and out of service.

A fresh face can sometimes breath new air into a stagnant organization, and I don't doubt for a second that there's been more than just a bit of that at Metrolinx. I've certainly heard as much from some of my contacts in the ivory tower. But you shouldn't ascribe to him being the next messiah, either.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

For instance, this upcoming schedule change was supposed to be radically different. There was going to be 15 minute mid-day service from Union to Oshawa.
.

That was actually planned? That is funny (to me). Back when the 30 minute Lakeshore service was launched I make the (half tongue in cheek) prediction that we would see 15 minute service on Lakeshore before the Kitchener (or any other line) got 7 day, all day, bi-directional service of any frequencies......the general reaction was that I was a paranoid angry old man.....would have been hilarious to see 15 minute frequencies arrive on the the Lakeshore!

 

[Neutrino]

Any further weekday improvements planned for Stouffville this year? Will they be filling the afternoon southbound gap?

 

[smallspy]

That was actually planned? That is funny (to me). Back when the 30 minute Lakeshore service was launched I make the (half tongue in cheek) prediction that we would see 15 minute service on Lakeshore before the Kitchener (or any other line) got 7 day, all day, bi-directional service of any frequencies......the general reaction was that I was a paranoid angry old man.....would have been hilarious to see 15 minute frequencies arrive on the the Lakeshore!

It was planned to the point that they distributed the planned schedules, run guides and platform allocations to many of the operations staff. So yes, they were very serious about it.

Keep in mind that the improvements were all in areas where Metrolinx already owns the tracks.

Any further weekday improvements planned for Stouffville this year? Will they be filling the afternoon southbound gap?

Weekend service in June. Because of how everything is set up right now, there's not much potential for improved rush hour service. They won't be able to fill in that "southbound gap" until they have a lot more double track in place and usable.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Great points and insights Dan. What month this year will GO's RTC start operating?

 

[Neutrino]

Dan, thanks for clarifying. I am eagerly awaiting Stouffville weekend service because it would work well for me for downtown social outings. Fingers crossed.

 

[Garuda]

What about weekend service on the Kitchener line up to Mount Pleasant? metrolinx owns the line till then and the route doesn’t cross paths with CN?

 

[hw621]

What about the Station Expansions on Stouffville? When do they come online?

I heard construction will start in September.

 

[hw621]

It was planned to the point that they distributed the planned schedules, run guides and platform allocations to many of the operations staff. So yes, they were very serious about it.

Keep in mind that the improvements were all in areas where Metrolinx already owns the tracks.



Weekend service in June. Because of how everything is set up right now, there's not much potential for improved rush hour service. They won't be able to fill in that "southbound gap" until they have a lot more double track in place and usable.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

How frequent will it be? I assume that it will be hourly two way? Will it go to Stouffville or just Unionville? Thanks!

 

[TOareaFan]

What about weekend service on the Kitchener line up to Mount Pleasant? metrolinx owns the line till then and the route doesn’t cross paths with CN?

Metrolinx does not own the line to there.

ML’s ownership of the corridor ends east of Bramalea station.

 

[felix123]

I think that you're putting way too much weight into what Verster can and can't do.

For instance, this upcoming schedule change was supposed to be radically different. There was going to be 15 minute mid-day service from Union to Oshawa. An additional hourly service from Union to Oakville, on top of the existing half-hourly service to Aldershot. Limited mid-day service on the Richmond Hill Line as far as Old Cummer. Instead, we get some minor adjustments to Barrie service. (The additional early and late Lakeshore service was already planned.)

So, what happened?

CN is still dispatching the lines, and put the kybosh on any major improvements for the time being due to their own operating and staffing issues. This is something that simply can't be fixed by GO in the short term - CN needs to deal with it themselves.

Later this year, this should change once GO is able to start dispatching their own lines. All of those service improvements should be able to be instituted, as they will no longer need to rely on CN dispatching the track that Metrolinx owns.

But don't kid yourself - plans like this have existed for years. 15 minute - RER - service, for instance. GO had ideas as early as the mid-1980s to run trains from Union to Cherry St. (where a new station would have been built) and to Exhibition or Mimico on their way into and out of service.

A fresh face can sometimes breath new air into a stagnant organization, and I don't doubt for a second that there's been more than just a bit of that at Metrolinx. I've certainly heard as much from some of my contacts in the ivory tower. But you shouldn't ascribe to him being the next messiah, either.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Thank you for the very informative post about what has been delayed for the immediate future, and I think that you have provided a great deal of insight into some of the reason why GO is only marginally more of a viable urban connector this decade than 2 or 6 decades previous. However, I am going to be that forumer and point out again that I am observing that GO has not had reasonably steady progress, with regards to: dedicated trackage, track duplication, level boarding, station amenities, TOD, electrification, above all - regular 2WAD services, everything, really. Rather, the progress that it is happening of late doesn't make up for Toronto's 120 year long rail history.

All these years later in 2018, GO is still attempting to impress upon stations built in dirt fields, surrounded by nothing but giant parking lots, single track extensions with peak period-only service hauled by diesel locomotives into the distant future for some reason despite Ontario's cheap and clean hydroelectricity (it is, by global standards, still very cheap), and I am saying that I don't think it has to be this way. What I have noticed is that there tend to be two types of forumers, the idealist ones like myself (i.e. "Why do most wealthy overseas cities have train systems that make ours look like crap? Let's build ours better now - here's how!") and the well-informed ones who reverse-engineer the current situation to try to make sense of it (i.e. "Toronto is built on a unique combination of silty sand and bedrock that *no* other city has ever had to deal with! No government could ever have conceived of legislating a better deal with CN and CP or providing adequate transit funding because there are so many systems in place etc etc!").

As for the aforementioned plans to run GO trains to Cherry St or Exhibition, that's really not at all the same as say, making the Stouffville-Milton Line, or the Barrie-Lakeshore East Line. How this would be achieved is up for debate, but essentially running regular services from end-to-end and interlining based on a logical pattern is reasonable. What would also be reasonable would be to have all stations in trunk sections being served regularly by multiple services, or to have a nearby transfer station that is actually useful to a passenger and doesn't require them to backtrack. It boggles my mind why not all Stouffville trains stop at at least one of Scarborough or Danforth stations, because someone from Oshawa should be able to work in Markham or shop at the Pacific Mall, considering there are train stations in all three locations. I think a good example of the above from a less-populated, less-dense city than Toronto is the Melbourne system, so I'm attaching a map of it (purple lines are regional services) to this post for reference.

So I don't think I'm kidding myself when I say that past intentions for GO have amounted to very little, and that disproportionately significant, concrete changes are happening now because the old guard that held us back for so long is just beginning to die out, figuratively speaking. I certainly never said I think Verster is a messiah, I only commented that he amounts to fresh blood at the top of a historically conservative organization.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Thank you for the very informative post about what has been delayed for the immediate future, and I think that you have provided a great deal of insight into some of the reason why GO is only marginally more of a viable urban connector this decade than 2 or 6 decades previous. However, I am going to be that forumer and point out again that I am observing that GO has not had reasonably steady progress, with regards to: dedicated trackage, track duplication, level boarding, station amenities, TOD, electrification, above all - regular 2WAD services, everything, really. Rather, the progress that it is happening of late doesn't make up for Toronto's 120 year long rail history.

All these years later in 2018, GO is still attempting to impress upon stations built in dirt fields, surrounded by nothing but giant parking lots, single track extensions with peak period-only service hauled by diesel locomotives into the distant future for some reason despite Ontario's cheap and clean hydroelectricity (it is, by global standards, still very cheap), and I am saying that I don't think it has to be this way. What I have noticed is that there tend to be two types of forumers, the idealist ones like myself (i.e. "Why do most wealthy overseas cities have train systems that make ours look like crap? Let's build ours better now - here's how!") and the well-informed ones who reverse-engineer the current situation to try to make sense of it (i.e. "Toronto is built on a unique combination of silty sand and bedrock that *no* other city has ever had to deal with! No government could ever have conceived of legislating a better deal with CN and CP or providing adequate transit funding because there are so many systems in place etc etc!").

As for the aforementioned plans to run GO trains to Cherry St or Exhibition, that's really not at all the same as say, making the Stouffville-Milton Line, or the Barrie-Lakeshore East Line. How this would be achieved is up for debate, but essentially running regular services from end-to-end and interlining based on a logical pattern is reasonable. What would also be reasonable would be to have all stations in trunk sections being served regularly by multiple services, or to have a nearby transfer station that is actually useful to a passenger and doesn't require them to backtrack. It boggles my mind why not all Stouffville trains stop at at least one of Scarborough or Danforth stations, because someone from Oshawa should be able to work in Markham or shop at the Pacific Mall, considering there are train stations in all three locations. I think a good example of the above from a less-populated, less-dense city than Toronto is the Melbourne system, so I'm attaching a map of it (purple lines are regional services) to this post for reference.

So I don't think I'm kidding myself when I say that past intentions for GO have amounted to very little, and that disproportionately significant, concrete changes are happening now because the old guard that held us back for so long is just beginning to die out, figuratively speaking. I certainly never said I think Verster is a messiah, I only commented that he amounts to fresh blood at the top of a historically conservative organization.

View attachment 138822

RER is a huge undertaking that will take another 7 years to complete. By global standards, we have one of the best, if not, the best, diesel-electric locomotive commuter rail systems in the world. Name another city that run trains that are as full as GO Transit's (12 car double decker trains). Electrification will be the saving grace, however, it will take a lot of time before it's ready for service. As well, not all areas of the system will be treated to the 2 way 15-minute all day electrified service we've been promised. In these areas (ie Gormly GO station and the Richmond Hill Line, the Milton Line, the Kitchener Line west of Bramalea) need to be built with other priorities in mind. Take Kitchener, it will only be receiving peak trains in the peak direction in the short term. For most people here, there's no public transit available for people to catch these trains. As a result, people have to drive. The best places to build stations are at locations where there is space for parking/rideshare infrastructure, are cheap to build in, and serve a newer customer base. This is why Breslau is getting a station, and it's the same reason Gormerly is a station, and why Bloomington will be a station. They serve different needs. I do agree that expanding parking infrastructure around RER stations is a little ridiculous, but it's a fair stopgap until the service is actually running, in which case, parking can easily be repurposed for transit-oriented development (like what the TTC is doing with Wilson Station).

 

[nfitz]

It was planned to the point that they distributed the planned schedules, run guides and platform allocations to many of the operations staff. So yes, they were very serious about it.

Wow, I didn't expect that so soon.

Though it's going to be necessary I'd think with a $3 fare from Rouge Hill to Long Branch, unlike the current $8.31. That's going to create some modal shift.

When do these new $3 fares take effect? I've been out of town, not paying enough attention.

 

[raptor]

Wow, I didn't expect that so soon.

Though it's going to be necessary I'd think with a $3 fare from Rouge Hill to Long Branch, unlike the current $8.31. That's going to create some modal shift.

When do these new $3 fares take effect? I've been out of town, not paying enough attention.

Assuming the liberals win the elections, sometime in 2019