[reaperexpress]

I also wouldn't have thought Niagara Falls, NY was the place to slip new short(er) haul service into line.
I would suggest that based on demand, the issue is not serving inbound passengers from NYC, but rather resident passengers from Buffalo, NY.
I've long though VIA/Amtrak should offer a shuttle train (w/pre-clearance) and very limited, or non-stop service from Buffalo, NY, to Toronto-Union.
I don't have stats to support this, but my impression of demand is that a four to six car train, well priced, and running timely, reliable service could probably run six times per day, each way, and turn a modest profit doing so.
I can say that there are currently an average 12 bus trips daily making the Buffalo to Toronto trip (up to six via Megabus) and that there flights as well as considerable car traffic.

No, I wouldn't have chosen Niagara Falls either. That's just where the border crossing is at the moment. This isn't an ideal concept by any means, it's rather a concept based on increasing service with only a minimal investment in infrastructure and only slight increases in operating costs operating costs.

Buffalo - Toronto makes a lot more sense as a demand pattern, and we should definitely pursue direct service as well, as I mentioned earlier. The two service concepts are not in conflict, they're just on different timescales. My schedule concept here is looking at a 1-2 year timescale with minor changes to services and border infrastructure, while direct service to Buffalo is more likely a 5-10 year timescale, with a fundamentally new service model and border crossing method.

Niagara Falls NY station was built last year, including the customs facilities to support the 1 daily international train. Building upon that existing infrastructure to support additional connections may well be a cost-effective way of building ridership.

The idea to replace the current international train came from the fact that the GO and VIA trips are nearly identical.
VIA/Amtrak runs a trip from Toronto to Niagara at 8:30 that takes about 2 hours, with stops in Oakville, Aldershot, Grimsby and St Catharines.
GO Transit runs a trip from Toronto to Niagara at 8:30 that takes about 2 hours, with stops in Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington and St Catharines.

Surely it would be most cost-effective to try and combine these two trips into one, and reinvest the savings toward more service at other times.

In all likelihood, the increase in cross-border trips would be relatively minor, attributable primarily to the increase in departures from 1 to 2. But that minor increase is basically for free given that the second daily international connection is between two trips which already operate on summer weekends within a hundred metres of each other, but don't connect due to the border barrier.

I still think inter-city rail stock would better at serving this market, though theoretically GO-type stock could be workable.

I don't think that's the case for meeting a service where people have already been on train for six hours plus.

In such cases, a modicum of luxury is all but essential.

Good point. I hadn't considered the passenger comfort aspect for those long-distance trips. Personally I find GO Bilevels to be similarly comfortable to Amfleets, but they do definitely lack the café car.

 

[smallspy]

Dan, refresh my memory but doesn't the Maple Leaf get held up and delayed at the border while customs and immigration gives trains and it's passengers the once over?

It does, but that is built into the schedules for that train. And frankly, Reaperexpress' schedule takes that into account.

There's one important thing that it doesn't take into account however - the fact that both GO and VIA equipment is not allowed to run into the US as they don't meet a host of FRA regs. So substantial is this that this past week VIA had to send out the Maple Leaf with a VIA unit in the lead as the Amtrak unit had failed - and the VIA unit had to be removed from the train on the Canadian side of the border. Amtrak had to send their Niagara Falls protect unit over the bridge to the Canadian station on its own to couple up to the disabled train.

Of course, this is not insurmountable - it just means spending a whack of money to get the equipment, or at least some subset of the equipment, modified to meet the regs. But is it a worthwhile use of funds? How many passengers can be expected to use this service?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[reaperexpress]

It does, but that is built into the schedules for that train. And frankly, Reaperexpress' schedule takes that into account.

There's one important thing that it doesn't take into account however - the fact that both GO and VIA equipment is not allowed to run into the US as they don't meet a host of FRA regs. So substantial is this that this past week VIA had to send out the Maple Leaf with a VIA unit in the lead as the Amtrak unit had failed - and the VIA unit had to be removed from the train on the Canadian side of the border. Amtrak had to send their Niagara Falls protect unit over the bridge to the Canadian station on its own to couple up to the disabled train.

Of course, this is not insurmountable - it just means spending a whack of money to get the equipment, or at least some subset of the equipment, modified to meet the regs. But is it a worthwhile use of funds? How many passengers can be expected to use this service?

Interesting. Plenty of American commuter rail systems run the same MPI MPXpress locomotives and Bombardier Bilevel coaches as GO, so I wouldn't have thought it would take much to get them certified in the U.S. In fact, many ex-GO locomotives have been sold to operate in the U.S. such as the GP40s sold to Amtrak and Tri-Rail, the F40PHs sold to Amtrak and the F59PHs sold to Trinity Railway Express.

You mentioned earlier that American trains need a speed regulator which limits them to 79 mph in the absence of cab signalling (or PTC?), what other changes are needed?

 

[TOareaFan]

Valid question. If I had to spitball....

Barrie is currently the only corridor with a massive surplus of capacity on weekends, due to the trains running. This, in concert with trying to "train" everyone to take the train in rather than driving may be why they're doing it.

If this is indeed the case, than I suspect that they will offer the same or a very similar one on the Stouffville Line once weekend service starts there, and for the weekend Kitchener service - provided they ever get around to offering it.

This kind of highly-targeted marketing and discounting plan has worked to great success for VIA over the past decade or so, and with UPX as well, so it stands to reason that it should work on GO as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

It is a slap on the face to the people not served by weekend rail service.....this is GO/ML is saying to them "Not only do you have to ride buses not trains.....you have to pay for your kids on them as well!"

 

[hw621]

It is a slap on the face to the people not served by weekend rail service.....this is GO/ML is saying to them "Not only do you have to ride buses not trains.....you have to pay for your kids on them as well!"

That is exactly how I felt.

 

[smallspy]

Interesting. Plenty of American commuter rail systems run the same MPI MPXpress locomotives and Bombardier Bilevel coaches as GO, so I wouldn't have thought it would take much to get them certified in the U.S. In fact, many ex-GO locomotives have been sold to operate in the U.S. such as the GP40s sold to Amtrak and Tri-Rail, the F40PHs sold to Amtrak and the F59PHs sold to Trinity Railway Express.

You mentioned earlier that American trains need a speed regulator which limits them to 79 mph in the absence of cab signalling (or PTC?), what other changes are needed?

Those locos and cars however are suitably modified (or as originally built) for US service, however. Little things like FRA-spec glazing and lighting, and the addition of coupler locks to GO and VIA equipment (which are illegal in the US) all add up at the end of the day.

Also, all of those ex-GO units were built and operated up here with GO's 575Vac HEP system. Just another thing that needed to be changed on those units before they went down south.

And yes, there's the whole issue of PTC or other sorts of cab-signalling, but to be honest, that's far less of a concern here. It only needs to be installed in the US to attain higher than 79mph. That won't be an issue on the trip between the Niagara Falls Station on this side of the border and the one on the US side.

It is a slap on the face to the people not served by weekend rail service.....this is GO/ML is saying to them "Not only do you have to ride buses not trains.....you have to pay for your kids on them as well!"

I'm not in disagreement. But will it prevent you from using GO in the future?

I suspect that your answer will be "no". And that's what they're banking on.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

^ no space for a platform. HSR won't stop there. There are enough tracks, there is room for 6 tracks through the station (4 of them with a platform). The corridor has space for 8 tracks once the Barrie Corridor joins.

 

[smallspy]

On the topic of Bloor GO Station...

Why doesn't it have a platform for the Milton train?

It was felt that one wasn't needed, as the line connected with the B-D subway at Kipling already.

Physically, is there even room for a Milton platform, sufficient for two-way service?

For the time being? Yes. Upon the full build-out of the corridor, however? Not without some additional properties being purchased.

How does HSR to London fit into Bloor GO? Even if it doesn't stop there, is there room for new dedicated tracks in addition to UPX; and 2 GO services into Union (actually 3 as GO Barrie enters the Union corridor closer to Queen Street)?

The whole HSR thing is so nebulous that I don't know if that much thought has been given to the actual track allocations yet or scheduling taking into account meets and passing opportunities. That said, there should be more than enough capacity on the Weston Sub upon the completion of the 4th track through the station for HSR.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[torontocolin]

The planned extension of the Bloor platforms south as a part of the 2280 Dundas redevelopment *might* make for the possibility of including a Milton platform south of the existing station which would very awkwardly connect. But it would be expensive and awkward for a station that likely isn't necessary given the Kipling connection.

 

[TOareaFan]

https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/promotions-and-events/barrie-line-trains
Looks like GO is trying to increase weekend ridership on the Barrie line. It's not a bad idea actually. Likely close to revenue neutral compared to using a group pass, but "kids ride free" is more immediately positive sounding.

Looks like:

• this is not just weekends....it is a 7 days a week kids ride free in the Barrie corridor
• includes buses too.

https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/children-...ain-line-for-free-starting-tomorrow-1.3905186

 

[felix123]

The planned extension of the Bloor platforms south as a part of the 2280 Dundas redevelopment *might* make for the possibility of including a Milton platform south of the existing station which would very awkwardly connect. But it would be expensive and awkward for a station that likely isn't necessary given the Kipling connection.

Should Milton one day be included in RER, GO will want to at least have made provisions for a platform at Bloor. In a city with Toronto's population and density, redundancy in the transit network is not a bad thing. It will help relieve Kipling as a potential choke point and bring Milton line passengers directly to the streetcar network without having to go to Union, it will act as a sort of express service from Kipling to Dundas West and it will mean that transit users of all stripes who are deposited at Kipling will have more logical options when Line 2 is closed at Kipling.
I understand that following the completion of regular Line 1 closures in 2019 for signalling work, Line 2 will get underway, so I imagine that closures on that line will become less common. It's also the norm in suburban rail networks for stations in trunk sections to allow access to, and transfers between lines - the biggest benefit in this location would be reducing the required number of transfers for some passengers.
This isn't to say there aren't tricky logistics in place, i.e. the expropriations that will need to be done, but I believe we will all end up being glad to have more network redundancy in place.

 

[gweed123]

Very interesting discussion on the GO-Amtrak connection in Niagara Falls. What about the potential of having the Canadian station host both Canadian and US border patrol?

Build a new platform to the north of the existing station (servicing the north track, call it Platform 2), and have that platform be the controlled customs area, accessible only by tunnel between the platform and the main station building. Have the inbound Amtrak train stop in Niagara Falls NY to let off the American passengers, and then cross the river to let off the Canadian passengers on Platform 2, who would then go through Canadian customs. Once they've cleared customs, they would walk out onto Platform 1 and get on a GO train.

For outbound Amtrak trips, there would be a US border preclearance station there, where once they've gone through it, they could pass through the tunnel and board on Platform 2. The train would then depart, and pick up US passengers on the other side of the river. In the outbound case, the passport control is done shortly before the train even arrives, so there's no delay at the border.

 

[torontocolin]

Should Milton one day be included in RER, GO will want to at least have made provisions for a platform at Bloor. In a city with Toronto's population and density, redundancy in the transit network is not a bad thing. It will help relieve Kipling as a potential choke point and bring Milton line passengers directly to the streetcar network without having to go to Union, it will act as a sort of express service from Kipling to Dundas West and it will mean that transit users of all stripes who are deposited at Kipling will have more logical options when Line 2 is closed at Kipling.
I understand that following the completion of regular Line 1 closures in 2019 for signalling work, Line 2 will get underway, so I imagine that closures on that line will become less common. It's also the norm in suburban rail networks for stations in trunk sections to allow access to, and transfers between lines - the biggest benefit in this location would be reducing the required number of transfers for some passengers.
This isn't to say there aren't tricky logistics in place, i.e. the expropriations that will need to be done, but I believe we will all end up being glad to have more network redundancy in place.

If Kipling is ever a choke point as a terminal station, we have much bigger problems to worry about. And there's no way RER on the Milton line is in place by the time the ATC resignalling begins on Line 2.

Adding a stop at Bloor would ultimately save a handful of people a few minutes, while adding a few minutes to the commute of a much larger group. Based on what we saw with similar proposed stops on other lines, if you were to model it out, I can pretty well guarantee that you would lose riders overall. I get why it appeals to people -- there's a well-connected station that it literally passes through already -- but between the cost and the limited actual benefit, we'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.

 

[Allandale25]

Not sure what the best thread is for this, but the Feds just announced they are providing money for 53 bi-level coaches. News release here. $93 million provided. "These 53 coaches are part of a larger order of 125 coaches. The first vehicle delivery is expected later this year."

News release

Burlington, Ontario, April 30, 2018—Investing in public infrastructure supports efficient, affordable and sustainable transit services that help Canadians and their families get to work, school and appointments on time and back home safely at the end of a long day.

The Honourable Karina Gould, Member of Parliament for Burlington, on behalf of the Honourable Amarjeet Sohi, Minister of Infrastructure and Communities; the Honourable Eleanor McMahon, Member of Provincial Parliament for Burlington; and Greg Percy, Chief Operating Officer of Metrolinx, today announced more than $187 million in joint funding for the Metrolinx GO Transit Bi-Level Coach Procurement project that will support an increase in the number of trains that run along all seven GO Transit corridors to help alleviate congestion for riders.

The Government of Canada is providing more than $93 million through the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund for this project while the Province of Ontario is providing the remaining costs.

The funding will be used to accelerate the purchase of 53 bi-level coaches that will enhance the GO Transit service. This purchase will support the expansion of GO train services and enable Metrolinx to meet forecasted service levels beyond 2018. Not only will this project improve passenger mobility, but will also help to improve operational efficiency, accessibility and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

This investment is part of an agreement between Canada and Ontario for the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund.

 

[dowlingm]

I just want it all done now, electrification or not.

Without electrification, you can't have the same service level - at least where EMU operation is the plan.