[Allandale25]

This is such a blame deferment. There is nothing stopping Metrolinx from adding more tracks in the Milton corridor, exclusively for GO Trainst.

Actually there is: CP Rail. The ROW is their property.

 

[rbt]

Actually there is: CP Rail. The ROW is their property.

I think CP would allow the installation of tracks. However, they won't allow catenary under any circumstances.

That $400M/year (and climbing) GO operations subsidy isn't expected to stick around very long. Without electrification they don't get the cheap operations of the other lines and service will be pummelled under both the Liberals (after electrification) and the Conservatives (possibly before electrification).

 

[Allandale25]

I think CP would allow the installation of tracks. However, they won't allow catenary under any circumstances.

That $400M/year (and climbing) GO operations subsidy isn't expected to stick around very long. Without electrification they don't get the cheap operations of the other lines and service will be pummelled under both the Liberals (after electrification) and the Conservatives (possibly before electrification).

Setting aside overhead wires for a moment, even if hypothetically CP allowed GO to add physically add the tracks, CP still controls the dispatching through their rail traffic control centre (RTC), right? I just think it's a lot more difficult than some people realize to add more service (IE more than just laying down tracks) without a willing private sector owner, unless the federal government brings down the hammer with the powers they have. It hasn't happened on the GO network to date.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The idea behind the seperate tracks would be that there would be two seperate "corridors" in the same right of way. 2 tracks would be for CP's exclusive use, and 2 would be for GO. They would never intersect, etc. Sort of like CP's freight track on the Georgetown Sub. It would let GO and CP operate completely separately from each other.

 

[rbt]

Setting aside overhead wires for a moment, even if hypothetically CP allowed GO to add physically add the tracks, CP still controls the dispatching through their rail traffic control centre (RTC), right?

Correct. Reliable service would still be tricky without some kind of contractual obligation requiring priority be given to GO trains over freight; something VIA has not been able to get from either CN or CP.

 

[Allandale25]

The idea behind the seperate tracks would be that there would be two seperate "corridors" in the same right of way. 2 tracks would be for CP's exclusive use, and 2 would be for GO. They would never intersect, etc. Sort of like CP's freight track on the Georgetown Sub. It would let GO and CP operate completely separately from each other.

I get the concept of separate tracks (IE Pickering-Oshawa), my point is that the entire width of the ROW is still CP Rail property. Unless they are willing to sell and GO is willing to pay for the grade separation near the Humber River to allow GO trains to get to switch from the south to/from the north, the corridor width presents an ownership challenge.

 

[crs1026]

Also read the article concerning the Milton Line linked earlier. Noticed that casual observation noted the same thing there that I note on the Kitchener Line. Freight trains do pass periodically throughout the day but certainly not enough to claim the tracks are even close to capacity, yet CN/CP say they can’t/won’t accommodate any more Go trains.

The railways' opposition is not completely irrational and there don't have to be a lot of freight trains out there to make their concerns material:

1) Any freight train delayed by GO trains is a cost to the freight business. The loss may not just be money, it may be reputational. Operational impacts may cascade through the freight operation (late train into Brampton Intermodal or Mac Yard = missed or delayed connections, wasted yard and hump capacity, etc)
2)Railways are highly scrutinised by Bay Street. Velocity and delays are key metrics. Metrics impact share price. It only runs once a day, but delay CN trains 148/149 (their Chicago-Halifax hotshot) by even 15 minutes and the metrics will feel an impact. Add 20 minutes to the schedule as a contingency, and shippers will notice. (Railways do enough things to themselves to mess up internally, but they aren't so foolish as to invite GO to help them do that).
3) The railway corridor is a privately owned asset with a market value. As GO ridership becomes a bigger and bigger share of the total utility gained from this asset, the amount of profit that the shareholders ought to enjoy from their investment in the asset needs to increase. Shareholders do not take lightly to government assuming the right to use a privately own asset at modest compensation. Even an outright sale will reflect this in the purchase price. Shareholders can fire their management and their board. And they can take legal action if they feel their rights were undermined.

The line could be optimised to fit freight and passenger together, yes. But the solution has to respect all three of the above.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ thanks Paul. Helpful insight as always and just shows the challenges GO/the Province faces. Helpful to understand in the context of the discussion we're having.

 

[robmausser]

It's Metrolinx; they may simply not have considered it.

Yes, never rule out stupidity for a reason for people not doing something. Its always a possibility.

 

[Allandale25]

Yes, never rule out stupidity for a reason for people not doing something. Its always a possibility.

What's the "it" refer to again in this? Adding more tracks to the existing Milton Line? If that's the case, GO Transit has considered it and there's a BCA and track plan for it here. There are service scenarios for the Milton Line and the need for a rail-over-rail grade separation near the Humber River is noted for one of the scenarios.

 

[TOareaFan]

The line could be optimised to fit freight and passenger together, yes. But the solution has to respect all three of the above.

- Paul

With respect, I do not think this is true. Since, in this case, CP owns the corridor it only has to respect their needs and at their sole determination. Only when they are "happy" will anything happen.

Similarly, on the KW line we can all point to how few freight trains there really are....or how easy it would/should be to get trains at all hours and on all days to Bramalea....but until CN believes/feels that it does not matter....they own it and only their needs need respecting.

 

[TOareaFan]

What's the "it" refer to again in this? Adding more tracks to the existing Milton Line? If that's the case, GO Transit has considered it and there's a BCA and track plan for it here. There are service scenarios for the Milton Line and the need for a rail-over-rail grade separation near the Humber River is noted for one of the scenarios.

following the trail of the conversation....the "it" in this case seems to be getting more trains at off peak into Bramalea.

 

[crs1026]

With respect, I do not think this is true. Since, in this case, CP owns the corridor it only has to respect their needs and at their sole determination. Only when they are "happy" will anything happen.

Similarly, on the KW line we can all point to how few freight trains there really are....or how easy it would/should be to get trains at all hours and on all days to Bramalea....but until CN believes/feels that it does not matter....they own it and only their needs need respecting.

I think we are saying the same thing. Or certainly, that's where I was going with my second sentence. I pointed out three things that the railways might need to be satisfied about. There are no doubt others that I am not aware of. Unless they are ready to sign off, no trains will get added.

I can certainly think of how one might put a GO train on an empty track without delaying any freights. But scheduling that train to run at the same time every day, all year long, is a much more complex proposition. On railway owned track, as you indicated - it's ultimately their call.

- Paul

 

[TOareaFan]

Meanwhile....with no plan in place for how to get 7 day a week bi-directional service even on, say, an hourly basis....they are tendering the job of getting the station ReR ready....and now I just read this in the other thread:

"Contract Awarded for Cooksville Station Redevelopment
November 03, 2017
MISSISSAUGA - Infrastructure Ontario (IO) and Metrolinx have awarded a fixed-price contract to EllisDon Infrastructure CGS RER Inc. (EllisDon) to design, build and finance the Cooksville GO Station Redevelopment project, in support of the province's GO Regional Express Rail (RER) program.

The contract is valued at $128.4 million, which reflects the substantial completion payment."

There is no plan on the table that gets ReR to any stations on the Milton line....but, what the heck, lets spend $128MM on getting the station ReR ready!

 

[cbrown2009]

The railways' opposition is not completely irrational and there don't have to be a lot of freight trains out there to make their concerns material:

1) Any freight train delayed by GO trains is a cost to the freight business. The loss may not just be money, it may be reputational. Operational impacts may cascade through the freight operation (late train into Brampton Intermodal or Mac Yard = missed or delayed connections, wasted yard and hump capacity, etc)
2)Railways are highly scrutinised by Bay Street. Velocity and delays are key metrics. Metrics impact share price. It only runs once a day, but delay CN trains 148/149 (their Chicago-Halifax hotshot) by even 15 minutes and the metrics will feel an impact. Add 20 minutes to the schedule as a contingency, and shippers will notice. (Railways do enough things to themselves to mess up internally, but they aren't so foolish as to invite GO to help them do that).
3) The railway corridor is a privately owned asset with a market value. As GO ridership becomes a bigger and bigger share of the total utility gained from this asset, the amount of profit that the shareholders ought to enjoy from their investment in the asset needs to increase. Shareholders do not take lightly to government assuming the right to use a privately own asset at modest compensation. Even an outright sale will reflect this in the purchase price. Shareholders can fire their management and their board. And they can take legal action if they feel their rights were undermined.

The line could be optimised to fit freight and passenger together, yes. But the solution has to respect all three of the above.

- Paul

I like this comment and wholeheartedly agree with its plausibility. What I’m saying is that there should be a solution that gets Go at least as far as Bramalea if not Mount Pleasant evenings and weekends with hourly service that wouldn’t step on CN’s toes as far as operating their business and serving the customers they have along the stretch in question. At least in the short term. Kitchener service, electrification and RER are a whole other ballgame for sure but I just can’t believe there’s nothing to be done about evenings/weekends to start