[denfromoakvillemilton]

So they were dragging their heals before the LRT decision? They somehow knew the decision in advance?

to be fair, I was probably at my most "vocal" after the completion of the GTS project about the missed opportunity of adding full, 7 day 2 way, service on the Kitchener line....it was at that time that the discussion around these boards were that a factor was the lack of crews......I don't recall reading about it outside of these boards however and since they have obviously found many crews since that time (as witnessed by the expansion of service on many lines since then) but they have found a use for them elsewhere......the issue (IMO) on Kitchener was never really crew related (as I said at the time, GTS took >5 years to build so if they ever planned to go to full service they had lots of time to recruit and train crews) it was related to the fact that they knew they did not have (and were not close to having) an agreement with CN to get the trains even as far as Bramalea (the busiest station on the line).

How did they come to a deal to purchase the track between Mimico and Aldershot at the same time? If you think it about it, Metrolinx looks worse. Metrolinx is lazy and unprepared. They don't need a tunnel for Bramalea, just 1 or 2 more tracks to fix the gap for Bramalea to Georgetown.

 

[Allandale25]

How did they come to a deal to purchase the track between Mimico and Aldershot at the same time? If you think it about it, Metrolinx looks worse. Metrolinx is lazy and unprepared. They don't need a tunnel for Bramalea just 1 or 2 more tracks to fix the gap for Bramalea to Georgetown.

CN was more willing to give it up/sell it because it has far fewer trains than the Halton Sub? Also, more track capacity to allow for more switching?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

CN was more willing to give it up/sell it because it has far fewer trains than the Halton Sub? Also, more track capacity to allow for more switching?

I actually thought Lakeshore West would be busier since it's closer to the US.

 

[Allandale25]

I actually thought Lakeshore West would be busier since it's closer to the US.

It may have been before the CN York Sub was built but that was the whole point of building it. Get freight out of downtown Toronto. So my understanding is that the CN York/Halton Sub is way busier. They have direct connections to the CN Mac and Intermodal terminal in Brampton. Here's a great map from the early 1960s that was posted recently. Bayview Junction just west of Aldershot gives CN the connect to Sarnia and the tunnel.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It may have been before the CN York Sub was built but that was the whole point of building it. Get freight out of downtown Toronto. So my understanding is that the CN York/Halton Sub is way busier. They have direct connections to the CN Mac and Intermodal terminal in Brampton. Here's a great map from the early 1960s that was posted recently. Bayview Junction just west of Aldershot gives CN the connect to Sarnia and the tunnel.

So this is about keep the connection clear to Windsor and the US midwest. Sounds fair.

 

[cbrown2009]

There is no reason that the tunnel and they bypass and the work on that platform at Bramalea could not all happen at the same time....if and when the bypass goes ahead.

I am pretty sure that when they wrote the cheque for the track west of Georgetown in this corridor they were optimistic....pretty sure when they spent the $1.3B on the GTS they were optimistic....but none of them led to where they want/need to go....how many cheques do we write in this corridor before someone says "no more cheques until we know we are gonna get full value for them".

The 401/409 tunnel won’t be done for at least another 3-4 years so to start it now fits the timeline to be done just as the catenary for electrification starts going up.

 

[TOareaFan]

The 401/409 tunnel won’t be done for at least another 3-4 years so to start it now fits the timeline to be done just as the catenary for electrification starts going up.

So?

 

[cbrown2009]

So?

Better if when electrification begins the tunnel is already done than not...

 

[TOareaFan]

Better if when electrification begins the tunnel is already done than not...

If we can only run the same number of trains as now......just electrify the existing tunnel.

At 117MM in cost this tunnel may already be adding zero new capacity.....why pile on with the cost of electrifying the additional tunnel.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

yeah....if you can never use it...why spend money on it? Kinda the way I feel about the tunnel under the 401....if that 117MM is not gonna increase the capacity of the corridor meaningfully because of what is west of it....why spend the money.

If you got the money and might get voted out next election, why wait?

If we can only run the same number of trains as now......just electrify the existing tunnel.

At 117MM in cost this tunnel may already be adding zero new capacity.....why pile on with the cost of electrifying the additional tunnel.

I'm sure the tunnel, like the UPX spur, will be designed to be electrification ready; proper clearances, knobs or whatever to install OCS wires and supports, and any safety or maintenance items. 'Electrification work' undertaken separately will literally be hanging the wires, a small and negligible cost.

 

[TOareaFan]

If you got the money and might get voted out next election, why wait?

Again, I don’t care (although I understand) about the political equation.

I am speaking purely about logic.....why spend >$100MM on something you may never need....when the thing that will decide whether you need it or not will take years to build anyway. From the point the bypass is agreed/approved there will be lots of time to build this tunnel.

They don’t “have the money” they are borrowing all this cash.

 

[Allandale25]

Again, I don’t care (although I understand) about the political equation.

I am speaking purely about logic.....why spend >$100MM on something you may never need....when the thing that will decide whether you need it or not will take years to build anyway. From the point the bypass is agreed/approved there will be lots of time to build this tunnel.

They don’t “have the money” they are borrowing all this cash.

Given the political interest in more service by all four parties, I highly doubt any of them will question the need to spend money on the tunnel now or tie it to succesful CN-Bypass negotiations. I realize that the political lens isn't one all are interested in but it's a reality. Of course, a different government in 2018 could announce they'll pause construction but I would assume there would be some kind of penalty paid to the winning consortium that was just announced.

Just like the Scarborough Subway Extension they all appear to be on the same page for this tunnel.

 

[TOareaFan]

Given the political interest in more service by all four parties, I highly doubt any of them will question the need to spend money on the tunnel now or tie it to succesful CN-Bypass negotiations. I realize that the political lens isn't one all are interested in but it's a reality. Of course, a different government in 2018 could announce they'll pause construction but I would assume there would be some kind of penalty paid to the winning consortium that was just announced.

Just like the Scarborough Subway Extension they all appear to be on the same page for this tunnel.

Fabulous.....so everyone is going to spend an additional ~ $120MM on something that will have no real value until something else is built in 7 or 8 years from now (if at all) and could easily be held off until we know the other thing is approved cause the tunnel can be built in less time than the bypass.

There is no penalty to be paid if no contract is signed for the tunnel. All that has happened so far is the winning group has been selected....still time for sanity to prevail before contracts are signed.

 

[Allandale25]

Yes, that's exactly (the spending part) what will happen. And given $117.9M is way less than $3.56B (at a minimum), think of it as a steal

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, that's exactly (the spending part) what will happen. And given $117.9M is way less than $3.56B (at a minimum), think of it as a steal

The $3.56B in Scarborough will move people (we can disagree if it is wise or “value”) ....if the bypass is not built this $117MM will be a total waste and will move no one.....I have no idea why anyone would want to go ahead with this without knowing the other part is going ahead.....it’s like paving your driveway without knowing if the builder is ever going to complete your house!