[steveintoronto]

All of those between Guelph, Waterloo, and Hamilton have plenty of demand.

Here's the argument being put to counter that 'enthusiasm'. First some retrospect:

New bus service links Hamilton, Guelph
NEWS Oct 04, 2010 Hamilton Spectator


GUELPH — Daily bus service between Guelph and Hamilton is running again.

London-based carrier Aboutown Transportation Ltd. began providing twice-daily service between the University of Guelph and downtown Hamilton Monday

There has been no regular service between the two cities since Coach Canada cancelled its service last year.

Those brave enough to make the trip with GO or Greyhound have had to detour through Toronto, taking up to four hours and paying up to $46 to cover 52 kilometres.

There has never been rail service between the two hubs.

Ian Weir, the University of Guelph’s manager of parking and transportation says he was “delighted” at the news.

“This new service will fill a gap in our connectivity with the regions south of Guelph,” he said.

Coach Canada service expanded in 2008 to five trips daily and prompted the university to renovate its transit loop to accommodate the increase.

That’s why many were shocked when the company abruptly dropped its service in last October, one month after students, many of them from Hamilton, had returned to class.

The company said its hand was forced to act after ridership dropped to an average of 11 passengers.


“You are not even covering the cost of the fuel,” Coach Canada spokesperson Brian Morehouse said at the time.

Starting Monday, Hamilton-bound buses will leave from the south end of the University of Guelph’s transit loop at 6 a.m. and 5:45 p.m. each day, arriving at Hamilton’s GO Terminal and McMaster University about an hour later. Return buses will depart Hamilton at 7:25 a.m. and 7:15 p.m.

Tickets can be purchased online or at the University Centre on campus.

The Guelph Mercury

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2174185-new-bus-service-links-hamilton-guelph/

I was living in Guelph at the time, and an avid distance cyclist (still am, but age catching up to me), and a lot of excellent cycling trails terminate/originate at Hamilton. After cycling down the Cambridge to Hamilton or up the Port Dover to Hamilton trails, both myself and a cycling partner would be exhausted, and the Aboutown 'bus' (actually an 'airport van' with space for the bikes in the back doors) was expensive, but a good deal per occasion. It was at or over $10.00 each one way, and the drivers were always very friendly and talkative. Often the van would be empty save for we two cyclists (many trails end at Hamilton, so used it a number of times).

There were three routes run by Aboutown out of Guelph at that time, at least two of them just two days a week, and at awkward times. An absolute shame, as ironically, as much as Guelph is out in excellent cycling territory, Greyhound, Canada Coach et al wouldn't allow bikes on (under) without being in boxes, and if one 'got a lift out of town' to then cycle back, it had to be by private car or truck.

And then Aboutown started shutting down routes one-by-one. The parent company went bankrupt:

Aboutown bus service from Hamilton-Guelph shut down

NEWS • DEC 19, 2013 — (LAST MODIFIED) FEB 8, 2014 • 0 COMMENTS • NEWS

Compass Information Centre has recently announced that bus route Northlink 8 Guelph–Hamilton, frequently used by students, will cease to operate on Friday, Dec. 20, 2013.

Aboutown had been running the route in affiliation with Compass since August 2010, however due to the influx of fuel and insurance costs and decreasing presence for inter-city operations, the route was forced to be pulled. “We receive no subsidization from any government source for inter-city and mass transits,” said Jeff Sich, Northlink Coordinator.

Any signage regarding the route has quickly been removed at Compass in the hopes that students will help inform the community. “The timing is not good for the students, because they are all on exams obviously,” said Debbie Good, Compass Manager. “We just want to make sure that students are not expecting that service to be there.”

Along with the Guelph-Hamilton route, all other inter-city routes through Aboutown will also cease on the same day. Students still looking for transportation in the area will still be able to use GO Transit and Greyhounds, which both run at comparable prices to the Aboutown route.

“We have received a couple of emails regarding the cancellation that was announced on Friday, Dec. 13, 2013,” said Sich. “We anticipate more in the New Year. All are disappointed with the announcement.”

Full refunds for customers who purchased tickets for future use will be available at Compass until Jan. 17, 2014.

https://www.thesil.ca/aboutown-bus-service-from-hamilton-guelph-shut-down

Here's the 'thing': GO service, dependable, reasonably frequent (even every two hours as long as it's hourly during peak to start) wouldn't 'break even' from farebox return (or as close as GO gets on any route, which is about 75%, very high by North Am standards) at first, but where it would show an immediate benefit to the system, let alone riders, is in relieving other routes crammed during peak to go to Mississauga and back via Timbuktu and Timothy's Coffee.

As another poster put it: (gist) "It's GO Bus' 'Missing Link'". The whole operation would benefit, and eventually, *at GO's price-point!* it would become as successful as many of their other initially marginal routes.

From my conversations with GO drivers operating out of the four garages that serve the region (might be more now, I still GO out there monthly, sometimes weekly with bike to tour) there is the capacity and will to do it at the operations level. Many of them can't understand why it hasn't happened already.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Here's the argument being put to counter that 'enthusiasm'. First some retrospect:

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2174185-new-bus-service-links-hamilton-guelph/

I was living in Guelph at the time, and an avid distance cyclist (still am, but age catching up to me), and a lot of excellent cycling trails terminate/originate at Hamilton. After cycling down the Cambridge to Hamilton or up the Port Dover to Hamilton trails, both myself and a cycling partner would be exhausted, and the Aboutown 'bus' (actually an 'airport van' with space for the bikes in the back doors) was expensive, but a good deal per occasion. It was at or over $10.00 each one way, and the drivers were always very friendly and talkative. Often the van would be empty save for we two cyclists (many trails end at Hamilton, so used it a number of times).

There were three routes run by Aboutown out of Guelph at that time, at least two of them just two days a week, and at awkward times. An absolute shame, as ironically, as much as Guelph is out in excellent cycling territory, Greyhound, Canada Coach et al wouldn't allow bikes on (under) without being in boxes, and if one 'got a lift out of town' to then cycle back, it had to be by private car or truck.

And then Aboutown started shutting down routes one-by-one. The parent company went bankrupt:

https://www.thesil.ca/aboutown-bus-service-from-hamilton-guelph-shut-down

Here's the 'thing': GO service, dependable, reasonably frequent (even every two hours as long as it's hourly during peak to start) wouldn't 'break even' from farebox return (or as close as GO gets on any route, which is about 75%, very high by North Am standards) at first, but where it would show an immediate benefit to the system, let alone riders, is in relieving other routes crammed during peak to go to Mississauga and back via Timbuktu and Timothy's Coffee.

As another poster put it: (gist) "It's GO Bus' 'Missing Link'". The whole operation would benefit, and eventually, *at GO's price-point!* it would become as successful as many of their other initially marginal routes.

From my conversations with GO drivers operating out of the four garages that serve the region (might be more now, I still GO out there monthly, sometimes weekly with bike to tour) there is the capacity and will to do it at the operations level. Many of them can't understand why it hasn't happened already.

Considering I've lived in the area for so much of my life and never heard of it, I'm not sure their business strategy was the best. They didn't seem to focus on student demand, which I believe would be what would make GO service much more successful. Also, GO is public transit, not a private company. Its motive should be to provide mobility, not make a profit.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Also I think GO should really explore a U Waterloo-Hamilton Airport bus service, via Kitchener, Guelph and Hamilton. Especially since two low-cost carriers are coming to the airport this summer. I suppose politics might play a role in why such a service doesn't current exist, but it would mean that people travelling between Guelph/K-W and Hamilton would no longer have to backtrack through Mississauga.

Coach Canada still has a franchise for Kitchener/Waterloo-Hamilton bus service (one of the last remnants of the once-extensive Canada Coach Lines network), and there are five trips a day in each direction.

But GO could offer a Guelph-Guelph U-Aberfoyle-McMaster-Hamilton service. And the HSR could operate all-day service on Route 20, which runs to the airport. Right now, it's rush hours only, with Trans-Cab service during other times.

See, I don't think such a service would have enough riders to be viable. The thing with Guelph-Hamilton bus service is that the demand is existent, but not enough for its own service. So the people who have to go between Guelph and Hamilton make the awkward backtrack through Mississauga and have to put up with it. But I could see enough people wanting to go to Hamilton Airport from K-W and Guelph once Canada Jetlines and Swoop start operation this summer (it's really attractive to university students flying home).

I was in Guelph when Coach Canada would offer service between Hamilton, and then when they cut it. Made mine and my wife's (then gf and eventually fiance) worlds hell; she was going to school in St Catharines, so trying to visit each other became much more tedious. We with had to take the GO via Guelph ► Square One ► Oakville ► Burlington, or take Greyhound through Toronto.

The fact it is a missing link is bang-on, because it is not just between two cities, it is between KW-Cambridge/Guelph and Hamilton plus Niagara. And sending a bus to downtown Hamilton is still a problem, because Niagara buses only stop at Red Hill Valley Parkway and Barton Street after doing a stupid loop-dee-loo. It's ineffecient movement and a missing link within Hamilton.

GO needs to seriously do some network rationalization and friggin' realize that not everyone is going in-and-out of Toronto. Hamilton needs to be an bus gateway hub between Niagara and Wellington/Waterloo. And if you're worried about the sustainability of a bus route from Guelph, funnel everyone from there and KW to Cambridge, and make one bus route between there and Hamilton your route. That would undoubtedly have the ridership.

 

[steveintoronto]

I was in Guelph when Coach Canada would offer service between Hamilton...

Thanks for that, just because some others have never heard of it or the replacement doesn't mean it wasn't an essential link. I was new to Guelph when Canada Coach had just dropped their link, and I knew about it, so I'm somewhat puzzled that others who claim to be 'transport aware' weren't. It was certainly big news in Guelph.

COACH CANADA CANCELS HAMILTON - GUELPH BUS SERVICE
By Robert Mackenzie on August 15, 2009 5:08 PM

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The Hamilton Spectator and Guelph Mercury both report that Coach Canada is ending daily bus service between Hamilton and Guelph, starting next Monday, August 17.

The newspapers quote Coach Canada spokesperson Brian Morehouse, who said the Guelph - Hamilton line has been a money-loser for years; however, they also report that regular passengers say buses are quite often full.

Buses leave Hamilton for Guelph as often as five times a day. From Hamilton, buses pick up and drop off passengers at McMaster University and from the downtown Hamilton GO bus terminal. In Guelph, buses leave from the University of Guelph’s transit loop in front of the University Centre and from the downtown Guelph bus terminal.

Buses also serve Waterdown and several rural communities within the City of Hamilton. The Coach Canada buses provide more direct service between Waterdown and downtown Hamilton than the Hamilton Street Railway’s own service. Passengers from downtown Hamilton have to travel by Burlington Transit or GO Transit to reach Aldershot GO Station before they can use the HSR’s service, which only operates during rush hours.

On Monday, Coach Canada is canceling the five daily runs and, instead, will operate one trip each week on Tuesdays until it ends the service completely on Tuesday, October 21.

According to Tom Luton’s Hamilton Transit History website, Canada Coach Lines (CCL) provided intercity coach service between Hamilton and Guelph as early as the 1930s.

“Originally a privately owned bus company, CCL bought the HSR from Ontario Hydro in 1946. Shortly after buying the HSR, the management of the CCL decided to re-arrange the corporate structure, making the HSR the parent company, and the CCL the subsidiary. This structure continued after the City of Hamilton bought HSR in 1960. The CCL served as a municipally owned intercity bus line until the City sold it to Trentway - Wagar in 1993.”

(This arrangement is similar to the City of Toronto’s relationship with the TTC and its intercity unit, Gray Coach Lines from the 1920s until the 1990s.)

https://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2009/08/15-coach_cana.shtml


As to the replacement:
New bus service links Hamilton, Guelph | TheSpec.com
New Bus Service Connects U of G, Hamilton | University of Guelph
FINALLY! Bus route between Guelph & Hamilton - MacInsiders ...

etc, etc. Was it widely advertised? Perhaps not, but it was there to see for those that wished to. It was certainly made known on the campuses, as that was their 'bread and butter'.

They didn't seem to focus on student demand, which I believe would be what would make GO service much more successful.

The record appears to differ.

Also, GO is public transit, not a private company. Its motive should be to provide mobility, not make a profit.

I don't think anyone has even intimated otherwise. But they can't be everything to everyone, and there's the small but prickly issue of 'The Regulator' as to granting the right to operate a route. That of course is provincial in this instance, and a matter of some discussion in other circles.

But here's the catch:

Coach Canada to discontinue bus service from Hamilton to Niagara
NEWS Oct 17, 2014 by Lisa Marr Hamilton Spectator


Coach Canada will soon end its bus service from Hamilton to Niagara region, citing unfair competition with GO Transit to the area.

It will also reduce service to Kitchener and will monitor ridership due to concerns about a similar drop in demand there.

"With the expansion of GO Transit over the past couple of years, our ridership has dropped dramatically," said John Crowley, a spokesperson for Coach Canada.

For example, from 2010 to 2013, passengers purchasing fares on buses from Hamilton to Niagara Falls as a single destination decreased by about one-third.

The bus also makes other stops on that route. During that same time, the company increased fares by 1.5 per cent.

Crowley said GO's service to St. Catharines, in particular, has had an impact as it is a common destination for Coach Canada partners, but the private bus service takes a longer route through the region, stopping at centres such as Welland on the way.

It had offered five daily trips to Niagara Falls from Hamilton. That will be reduced to four trips Nov. 6 and discontinued altogether by the new year.

It is the only bus service operating through the Niagara region to smaller stops.

"We only get revenues from our fares," Crowley said. "That's how we stay in business. GO is heavily subsidized."

Crowley said the company has been meeting with GO Transit officials to "work out a solution."

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/...ontinue-bus-service-from-hamilton-to-niagara/

I believe the situation was similar with Brantford. This brings in an area of discussion that Sean Marshall has addressed in his blog on-line, and some other posters have discussed in another thread at this site that escapes my memory at this time.

Coach Canada don't help their case by being so friggin' anal about denying cyclists the use of the *extra* cargo hold under their buses, even if the cyclist loads and unloads it themselves (any cyclist with a good machine would insist on doing it themselves anyway). Ditto the other moaning carriers. Get with the times, and stop complaining that you need subsidies when you complain about GO receiving them for their routes.

Some private carriers exist on subsidies, contrary to their bleating.

 

[timio]

Go has released the beta of their new site (beta.gotransit.com). Although it looks nicer, they have opted to remove pdf timetables in favour of the build your own schedule option. My guess is their reason is related to AODA, but other agencies have both pdf and dynamic.

Three of 6 initial replies to their tweet are related to this (https://mobile.twitter.com/GOtransit/status/972194975181082624)

 

[steveintoronto]

Go has released the beta of their new site (beta.gotransit.com).

Aimed directly at robots.

It's certainly not for thinking people...and perhaps that was the intention. Can't have thinking people ruining things.

Brian Doucet

@bmdoucet
·
1h

Replying to @GOtransit
How does a new website make the trains go faster, exactly? And how does it make them easier if we still only have 4 per day on the @GOtransitKT line?

Give me a printed map fer Chrisakes, with a posted schedule. If not to me personally, at all major intersections. But it would require individuals to think, and process information for themselves. That could be dangerous...

 

[Allandale25]

Even on weekends.

https://twitter.com/GOtransitBR/status/972660728271339520?s=19

 

[mrxbombastic]

Even on weekends.

https://twitter.com/GOtransitBR/status/972660728271339520?s=19

I should hope that frieght movement is on the CP North toronto sub and Davenport Diamond crossing. If not i would be very concerned of scheduling incompetence when Metrolinx owns the line...

 

[cbrown2009]

I should hope that frieght movement is on the CP North toronto sub and Davenport Diamond crossing. If not i would be very concerned of scheduling incompetence when Metrolinx owns the line...

No. Judging by the location, yesterday’s movements were CN moves further north on the line. ML does own the line Union - Allendale but CN has a couple of customers they still serve, a brickyard and a lumber yard. This was discussed a few days ago on UT because there are consistent significant disruptions to Barrie midday service on Mondays and Thursdays... I happened to be at Downsview Park while this was happening. Missed the 7:18 northbound and thought to catch the 7:30 south and upturn at Union rather than wait the hour. But that southbound train was delayed by over 20 minutes so I ended up waiting. The northbound train showed up on time at 8:18, so...

 

[mrxbombastic]

Is it

No. Judging by the location, yesterday’s movements were CN moves further north on the line. ML does own the line Union - Allendale but CN has a couple of customers they still serve, a brickyard and a lumber yard. This was discussed a few days ago on UT because there are consistent significant disruptions to Barrie midday service on Mondays and Thursdays... I happened to be at Downsview Park while this was happening. Missed the 7:18 northbound and thought to catch the 7:30 south and upturn at Union rather than wait the hour. But that southbound train was delayed by over 20 minutes so I ended up waiting. The northbound train showed up on time at 8:18, so...

I don't know what rights CN might have retained over the line and can completely understand they have industry customers along the route. That said, deliveries should not be done to the detriment of passenger service... why not overnight?

 

[crs1026]

I don't know what rights CN might have retained over the line and can completely understand they have industry customers along the route. That said, deliveries should not be done to the detriment of passenger service... why not overnight?

I have been told unofficially but reliably that CN has some sort of internal moratorium on change requests from commuter operators, stemming from the near-meltdown they are having out west. Basically their people don’t have time to work on rescheduling things that don’t contribute to grain and other operations. There may be a little bit of circled wagons in that position, considering that Ottawa is holding the railways’ feet to the fire on grain so aggressively.

I have also been told - again, without confirmation, but reliably - that ML is required to get some degree of CN signoff on schedule changes on all the former CN trackage, even if there is no direct impact on CN. And some of these are said to be caught up in the same moratorium.

However, a 20 minute delay without cancellation north of Maple sounds more like a Davenport delay than one further north. Today is Monday, we’ll see what happens this week.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

I have been told unofficially but reliably that CN has some sort of internal moratorium on change requests from commuter operators, stemming from the near-meltdown they are having out west. Basically their people don’t have time to work on rescheduling things that don’t contribute to grain and other operations. There may be a little bit of circled wagons in that position, considering that Ottawa is holding the railways’ feet to the fire on grain so aggressively.

I can confirm this. Basically all of their operations to the east of Winnipeg have been told to "hold the status quo" until such a time that things even out with the operations out west.

In fact, they've told GO that for the time being and the immediate future that they are going to have to dispatch their trains in such a way as to minimize any potential interference with other trains. This means, for instance, all GO trains will need to be routed on track 3 from Burlington West to Desjardins, rather than putting the Hamilton-bound trains on track 2. And thus, there will be delays to some of those trains as they will have to wait for a Toronto-bound train to clear the plant at Burlington West.

I have also been told - again, without confirmation, but reliably - that ML is required to get some degree of CN signoff on schedule changes on all the former CN trackage, even if there is no direct impact on CN. And some of these are said to be caught up in the same moratorium.

- Paul

I can confirm this as well. Because CN is still doing the dispatching for GO's operations, they need to make sure that they have the manpower on hand for whatever operational changes that GO wants to make, and also in case they need to reorganize the desks to be able to handle the additional workload.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

A

Go has released the beta of their new site (beta.gotransit.com). Although it looks nicer, they have opted to remove pdf timetables in favour of the build your own schedule option. My guess is their reason is related to AODA, but other agencies have both pdf and dynamic.

Three of 6 initial replies to their tweet are related to this (https://mobile.twitter.com/GOtransit/status/972194975181082624)

The AODA card has been played - as it was with the change of Presto card to black - even though as far as I know it is possible to make Accessible PDFs https://twitter.com/femwriter/status/972232034046193664

 

[Allandale25]

I can confirm this. Basically all of their operations to the east of Winnipeg have been told to "hold the status quo" until such a time that things even out with the operations out west.

In fact, they've told GO that for the time being and the immediate future that they are going to have to dispatch their trains in such a way as to minimize any potential interference with other trains. This means, for instance, all GO trains will need to be routed on track 3 from Burlington West to Desjardins, rather than putting the Hamilton-bound trains on track 2. And thus, there will be delays to some of those trains as they will have to wait for a Toronto-bound train to clear the plant at Burlington West.

I can confirm this as well. Because CN is still doing the dispatching for GO's operations, they need to make sure that they have the manpower on hand for whatever operational changes that GO wants to make, and also in case they need to reorganize the desks to be able to handle the additional workload.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Will the situation get slightly better when construction on the new GO operations centre at Oakville GO get better? From what I recall it will mean GO can do it's own rail traffic control?

 

[crs1026]

Will the situation get slightly better when construction on the new GO operations centre at Oakville GO get better? From what I recall it will mean GO can do it's own rail traffic control?

One would think so. Right now, CN is also in the process of moving dispatching of some non-GO territories from its Toronto dispatching office to Montreal. The two changes are related, since once the GO desks move to Oakville the remaining territory handled from Toronto will be that much less, and economies can be obtained. In the short term, it means that some of the RTC's are moving around and may not be handling the territories that they are most familiar with. Lots of change all around.

- Paul