[dkt]

what exactly is the insufferable hardship here? That a few dozen students in Waterloo have to take the bus every hour to Bramalea to transfer into a train rather than having one of these connections every 4 hours replaced by extending one of these hourly trains to Kitchener, which would still take students traveling between Laurier University and any GO train station along the Kitchener corridor the same travel time (approx. 2h20) and the same number of transfers (i.e. 1)?

okay well I just tried to do that exact thing yesterday and the bus arrived at Bramalea station after the last train had already left. Had to wait an hour at the station for another bus to arrive to take me to Union. Admittedly this was my first time on the Kitchener line, but this really doesn't seem like usable service!

 

[nfitz]

okay well I just tried to do that exact thing yesterday and the bus arrived at Bramalea station after the last train had already left. Had to wait an hour at the station for another bus to arrive to take me to Union. Admittedly this was my first time on the Kitchener line, but this really doesn't seem like usable service!

Once I took one of the Friday buses from UW to Bramalea, that when went on to 407 station. That worked so well, I don't know why it only happens on Fridays.

 

[mdu]

Once I took one of the Friday buses from UW to Bramalea, that when went on to 407 station. That worked so well, I don't know why it only happens on Fridays.

I'm not 100% sure about the service right now since it's not on the online schedule, but the old schedules had a LOT more service on Fridays on account of students return to the GTA on weekends, including express-to-SQ1 and a 407 trip; I assume they moved the 407 trip to the 30 since they extended that to UW recently.

 

[dkt]

I'm not 100% sure about the service right now since it's not on the online schedule, but the old schedules had a LOT more service on Fridays on account of students return to the GTA on weekends, including express-to-SQ1 and a 407 trip; I assume they moved the 407 trip to the 30 since they extended that to UW recently.

As far as I can tell the 407 trip was the 25F route, which doesn't seem to be running at all right now. The Square One route is happening every day and the 30 still ends at Bramalea and only runs on weekdays.

 

[ARG1]

As far as I can tell the 407 trip was the 25F route, which doesn't seem to be running at all right now. The Square One route is happening every day and the 30 still ends at Bramalea and only runs on weekdays.

Yep.

To add on to that, the 25F had VERY limited service. It was something like busses to H407 Friday evenings, and busses to Waterloo Sunday evenings.

 

[reaperexpress]

As far as I can tell the 407 trip was the 25F route, which doesn't seem to be running at all right now. The Square One route is happening every day and the 30 still ends at Bramalea and only runs on weekdays.

The 25F was awesome. At the time it was introduced, I was studying at the University of Waterloo, and had family in Vaughan. It was a total game changer, cutting a solid half hour off of the next fastest option which was the 25C Express to Square One, then transferring to 45, 46 or 47 to YorkU. Westbound trips ran non-stop starting from Hurontario/407 Park & Ride, which meant that they could just drive to conditions and usually arrive in Waterloo early, sometimes covering the trip in barely over an hour. I would usually plan on catching bus connections at Laurier which were scheduled to depart as much as 10 minutes before the GO bus was scheduled to arrive.

It's also noteworthy that they had significantly underestimated the demand for a much-faster service along a pre-existing route. The "F" buses were all completely jam packed from day one, consistently leaving people behind. They doubled the service frequency in the next schedule change, after which the buses were consistently full but not overcrowded. I think it supports my theory that GO's service planning underestimates the effect of scheduled speed on ridership demand among students. They seem to assume that if a service exists, that students will take it no matter how slow it is because they are "captive riders". See for example how in 2021 they increased service to 2 buses per hour on the 25 Local, without reinstating any express services at all. It's not a matter of operating costs - it have would cost exactly the same to run 1 bus per hour local to Square One + 1 bus per hour to Kipling via Square One. But in reality, students will often be dissuaded by long travel times and instead seek alternatives such as ride sharing, private bus operators, or simply not travelling as often.

Here's the September 2019 Route 25 weekday schedule (from my GO schedule archive):

To add on to that, the 25F had VERY limited service. It was something like busses to H407 Friday evenings, and busses to Waterloo Sunday evenings.

The 25F only ran on Fridays and Sundays, but on those days it did run in both directions. In the present service the 25F has effectively been replaced by Route 30, which is an okay substitute given the frequent service from Bramalea to Highway 407 station.

 

[ARG1]

The 25F only ran on Fridays and Sundays, but on those days it did run in both directions. In the present service the 25F has effectively been replaced by Route 30, which is an okay substitute given the frequent service from Bramalea to Highway 407 station.

Ah ok.

 

[dkt]

The 25F was awesome. At the time it was introduced, I was studying at the University of Waterloo, and had family in Vaughan. It was a total game changer, cutting a solid half hour off of the next fastest option which was the 25C Express to Square One, then transferring to 45, 46 or 47 to 407. Westbound trips ran non-stop starting from Hurontario/407 Park & Ride, which meant that they could just drive to conditions and usually arrive in Waterloo early, sometimes covering the trip in barely over an hour. I would usually plan on catching bus connections at Laurier which were scheduled to depart as much as 10 minutes before the GO bus was scheduled to arrive.

It's also noteworthy that they had significantly underestimated the demand for a much-faster service along a pre-existing route. The "F" buses were all completely jam packed from day one, consistently leaving people behind. They doubled the service frequency in the next schedule change, after which the buses were consistently full but not overcrowded. I think it supports my theory that GO's service planning underestimates the effect of scheduled speed on ridership demand among students. They seem to assume that if a service exists, that students will take it because they are "captive riders". See for example how in 2021 they increased service to 2 buses per hour on the 25 Local, without reinstating any express services at all. It's not a matter of operating costs - it have would cost exactly the same to run 1 bus per hour local to Square One + 1 bus per hour to Kipling via Square One.

It would be pretty great for me as well. Not sure whether I should be holding out hope for it coming back, lol

People at UW do seem to take the Square One bus just because it's almost the only transit option. It would be very out of the way for me so I'm reluctant to settle for that. Maybe I'll try the bus from Bramalea to 407 next time instead of waiting for the one to Union

Here's the September 2019 Route 25 weekday schedule (from my GO schedule archive):

That's awesome, I was just looking for something like that. Do you have any more archived schedules? (your second link just links to the same schedule)

 

[reaperexpress]

It would be pretty great for me as well. Not sure whether I should be holding out hope for it coming back, lol

People at UW do seem to take the Square One bus just because it's almost the only transit option. It would be very out of the way for me so I'm reluctant to settle for that. Maybe I'll try the bus from Bramalea to 407 next time instead of waiting for the one to Union

Yeah you shouldn't hold out hope for it. I think the fact that they extended the 30 to UW is a fairly clear indication that they intend the 30 to serve the Waterloo - Bramalea (- York) demand formerly served by the 25F. However, given that fact, they really need to start running the 30 on weekends, not just weekdays. Sundays in particular would be very popular - as evidenced by the popularity of the 25F.

In addition to introducing an hourly weekend Route 30 service, similar to the weekday off-peak service, they could add a couple extra express trips around 16:00 and 17:00 on Sunday afternoons bypassing Meadowvale and Kitchener Central to better capture the demand formerly served by the 25F.

Do you have any more archived schedules? (your second link just links to the same schedule)

I do. I have fixed the link now, thanks for letting me know it was wrong.

 

[tmlittle]

It's also noteworthy that they had significantly underestimated the demand for a much-faster service along a pre-existing route. The "F" buses were all completely jam packed from day one, consistently leaving people behind. They doubled the service frequency in the next schedule change, after which the buses were consistently full but not overcrowded. I think it supports my theory that GO's service planning underestimates the effect of scheduled speed on ridership demand among students. They seem to assume that if a service exists, that students will take it because they are "captive riders". See for example how in 2021 they increased service to 2 buses per hour on the 25 Local, without reinstating any express services at all. It's not a matter of operating costs - it have would cost exactly the same to run 1 bus per hour local to Square One + 1 bus per hour to Kipling via Square One.

I think this is an especially good observation. Weekend student travel to Toronto/GTA is a niche but paradoxically large market for bus ridership specifically from Waterloo. These are people who are probably bringing luggage, and the market GO is competing with is informal rideshare groups and Uber, which are more expensive but often provide door to door service. Rideshares (basically informal taxis) are more expensive now but used to be available for as little as $20-25 per person. For that you got a single-seat ride, usually from a UW commercial plaza near dense student housing, to a GTA/west Toronto destination.

What made the 25C/25F/etc variations effective was they took riders off the 25 local and helped balance out demand factors, schedule reliability was improved, etc. I used to be a daily 25 commuter while also occasionally taking it to Square One on weekends and Friday mornings, even during peak COVID, it was often noticeably delayed even arriving at downtown Kitchener, with maybe 30-40% more riders than a usual morning.

The problem with reduction to the 25 only is not just that travel times are much longer for many riders, but elimination of variations like the 25F really limits riders' options, especially on weekends, to get to and from Toronto or other parts of the GTA without a possibly convoluted journey to Square One. I agree with others that adding weekend service to the 30 would help with this.

I think Kitchener-Waterloo riders are given a bit of a runaround here where any complaints about service *right now* get met with renewed 2WADGO promises. 2WADGO would be ideal, especially including frequent weekend trains, but what about the meantime? It feels like this isn't staged out properly at all - before you add a ton of capacity (GO trains) you want to expand service frequencies to build your ridership further. Buses are the obvious answer to the problem of demand surges from weekend leisure travel to Toronto, a ridership niche that was once also filled by coach companies like Greyhound that are now gone.

Just to clarify, I'm not against increased 25 service at all - I think it's very important in the short term for connecting Cambridge and Guelph together (barring future services that may not happen) and makes the transfer point at Aberfoyle more useful for riders. I just think that when you have a very demographically specific niche market, it's best to give it a service that's more tailored to actual demand in the way the 25F was.

 

[Allandale25]

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[innsertnamehere]

How about actually building the other stations on the Niagara Extension first?

Also, the IBC report is dated November 2020. Why over a year to make it public?

 

[Northern Light]

How about actually building the other stations on the Niagara Extension first?

Also, the IBC report is dated November 2020. Why over a year to make it public?

Even just getting Confederation up and running; the assorted track improvements at West Harbour finished; and maybe a second daily train?

Big plans are good (when done properly); but actual deliverables matter more.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I mean I rant about Confederation GO all the time on this board, but the drawn out timelines on it are completely ridiculous and there is absolutely no media attention on it. It's not part of the Niagara Extension technically, rather part of the Hamilton Expansion program, but god is that program just absolutely crawling.

 

[anb]

I think this is an especially good observation. Weekend student travel to Toronto/GTA is a niche but paradoxically large market for bus ridership specifically from Waterloo. These are people who are probably bringing luggage, and the market GO is competing with is informal rideshare groups and Uber, which are more expensive but often provide door to door service. Rideshares (basically informal taxis) are more expensive now but used to be available for as little as $20-25 per person. For that you got a single-seat ride, usually from a UW commercial plaza near dense student housing, to a GTA/west Toronto destination.

The problem with reduction to the 25 only is not just that travel times are much longer for many riders, but elimination of variations like the 25F really limits riders' options, especially on weekends, to get to and from Toronto or other parts of the GTA without a possibly convoluted journey to Square One. I agree with others that adding weekend service to the 30 would help with this.

I find it so ironic that the bus that’s supposed to replace service on the *KITCHENER* line going directly there, does anything but its job replacing the train service on weekends. Instead we have another bus route so out of the way along the corridor that’s supposed to be it’s alternative service… If Metrolinx doesn’t see the problem in this then i don’t know if we’ll ever get the 30 on weekends especially if they do something like just increasing 25’s frequency and hoping for the best.