[T3G]

I'm confused about who are the narcissists. Is it the people who delay a train for seconds, or the people who think being delayed for seconds is a horrific ordeal?

Spoiler

The correct answer is both.

If you think the only consequence of holding doors is a few second delay.

There is the equally likely possibility that interfering with the doors could cause them to malfunction, which would require troubleshooting and probably taking those doors out of service, which would take time. This is a problem specially on the TTC, which runs super tight headways.

 

[crs1026]

The vast majority of the public on this continent understands the principle that when the door chimes sound, if you have not boarded, then you are not able to board. Drawbridges, ferries, railway crossings, and many other functions in our society work on the same model : inches away, but beyond access when the lights begin to flash.

That’s the only way a system can stay on time. Transit is not like a supermarket, where if another person arrives, the proprietors are eager to admit them immediately. There is a continuing flow of passengers - if each arriving passenger can demand entry, the train will never leave. Breaking the flow will always seem arbitrary, but letting the clock make the decision is non-discriminatory and generally reasonable to most people. It’s human nature perhaps to dash when time is closing in on that cutoff point, but mature people accept they will lose the race sometimes..

So long as the door operator adheres to the exact schedule, as I believe GO staff generally do, then the door chimes and lights have to preempt the individual’s right to board. (That premise breaks down late at night after big events downtown, I will admit - GO needs to move more people sooner at times)

The doors on our subways and GO railcars meet the prevailing safety standard - they will reopen if they sense pressure on the closing edge of the door. This is triggered mechanically rather than optically or by radar, as a supermarket door might. Apart from crush load situations, where people may be unable to fully cross the threshold, the warnings give enough time that no one will be pinned - so sufficiently safe if people accept the design premise.

I am not in favour of switching to a remote sensing system that allows people to delay or pause the basic close-and-go function. The environment is different in terms of weather, dirt and grime, and potential for spurious objects to cause false operation. As well, ,the desired function is detecting “pinned” objects rather clearing the path for anyone approaching.

- Paul

 

[WB62]

The doors on GO trains will cycle through 3 times if they detect a blockage, closing faster and harder each time, if someone continually hold the door open after the 3 cycles the door will stay open and a crew member will have to come down and manually cut out the door, which will result in a delay and a door that people can no longer use until it’s fixed at the yard after the train is out of service.

 

[lenaitch]

Remove all sensors; sharpen the doors' leading edges.

Word will get around.

 

[Northern Light]

Remove all sensors; sharpen the doors' leading edges.

Word will get around.

Can we have those sharp edges perpetually lubed by just a hint of dark red paint?

 

[reaperexpress]

Remove all sensors; sharpen the doors' leading edges.

Word will get around.

In the UK and Australia they often put stickers with jagged patterns on the leading edge of the doors to subconsciously discourage people from stopping the doors.

 

[smallspy]

Personally I wouldn't trust an elevator door to reopen if it's less than about 40 cm's apart.

Elevator doors have a flap between the doors that acts as a safety system. If anyone or anything is in between the doors, the flap will contact it, and will cause the doors to reopen.

Subway and GO Train doors are a lot less capable of reopening - they do not spot things blocking their space (as elevator doors do) and their alarm only trips when the door has fully closed and the sensors detect an abnormal fit of the door edges. The whole cycle of alarm-stop-reopen-wait-close again takes longer and creates further pauses before the train can start moving.

The TR subway cars use both sensors in their door edges, and systems that take current/amperage readings on the motors. Should either system detect a blockage, the door will stop closing.

This is pretty standard around most of the transit industry now.

If someone forcibly pries open the doors, sure, they will stop closing - but that's real dirtbag behaviour which is very likely to disable the door, causing a delay to several hundred people. If you are one of those people who do that, well, I'm judging. Most adults do know better. (PS - I believe it's actually an offense that one can be ticketed for if caught).

- Paul.

The latest trend in the transit world is to design door systems so that the door can not be forced back open once it starts closing - the system will stop the closing of the door, but not reopen it. This helps prevent people holding the door as now doing so won't necessarily get them into the vehicle.

Dan

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I don’t understand how it’s inherently unsafe to stick your hand in a door. I and many other passengers do it all the time in elevator doors. Metrolinx has no control over passenger perceptions of safety at the doors unless it embarks on a campaign to remove safety protections from all elevators in the province. Even then, visitors from elsewhere will continue to put their hands in.

Passengers who act reasonably are entitled to safety, even if it annoys us.

Shoving your hand in an elevator door, and delaying it's movement. Might impact a few thousand people in the given building. However 1) there are usually other elevators in the building for people to use and 2) getting your hand/arm/leg stuck in the door might result in damage to that limb should the car move and the limb be partially in the moving car.

On a GO Train or subway train. Delaying the train affects not just the ~1000 people on the train but also delays all the trains downstream and if you happen to case an incident there is usually no alternative on that line for other riders to use and if you do get stuck suddenly to the outside of a moving train the possible injury is far greater, including death.

Yes both have safety systems designed to prevent injury but you wouldn't shove your finger in a live electrical socket despite it having a safety system (breaker) in place to prevent injury. Or more analogous, wouldn't try to walk under a garage door in the process of closing despite it having sensors to prevent closing on you.

 

[crs1026]

In the UK and Australia they often put stickers with jagged patterns on the leading edge of the doors to subconsciously discourage people from stopping the doors.

The not so gentle tingle of an electric fence might be constructive…

- Paul

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Could you link to these communications? I have never seen one from either company, and I regularly rode the TTC for years.

It is unreasonable to expect the average passenger, who has never had to pass a safety training course, should have a detailed understanding of how doors work, and how they differ between different installations (bus/streetcar/subway/commuter train/elevator).

The doors in an elevator or on a streetcar will re-open if you put your hand over a sensor. Passengers whose travel history consists entirely of elevators and streetcar could reasonably believe that all doors are like that, because their experience tells them it’s safe to put their hand in the door. It is unreasonable to expect them to understand the safety risks on a mode they rarely use.

Travelling Safely

Safety is our priority

www.ttc.ca

• Do not try to force open the car doors. You could get hurt and you could damage the door mechanism (which may prevent the train from proceeding).

[\quote]

 

[T3G]

Remove all sensors; sharpen the doors' leading edges.

Word will get around.

I liked the speedy door operation of the old M1 and H6 subway cars.

No one would charge these doors! And if they did, they'd learn REAL quick not to do that a second time.

 

[MovingBlock]

I am not in favour of switching to a remote sensing system that allows people to delay or pause the basic close-and-go function. The environment is different in terms of weather, dirt and grime, and potential for spurious objects to cause false operation. As well, ,the desired function is detecting “pinned” objects rather clearing the path for anyone approaching.

I think I should have been more clear when describing the system. In PSDs (globally), and on trams & trains in German-speaking countries, the sensitive edge is augmented with light barriers (of the type used in elevators) used to detect pinned objects after the door is fully closed (if you stick your hand in while closing, it will still close on you, but the vehicle won't be able to move). The problem with relying on a sensitive edge on it's own is that they regularly fail to detect flexible objects (though they are still good for regular crush protection).

So long as the door operator adheres to the exact schedule, as I believe GO staff generally do, then the door chimes and lights have to preempt the individual’s right to board. (That premise breaks down late at night after big events downtown, I will admit - GO needs to move more people sooner at times)

It is true that the door alarm & lights indicate that the passenger no longer has a right to board. If a passenger ignores them, the company still has an obligation to keep them safe if they get trapped in the door.

Passengers sometimes get trapped through no fault of their own (link).

Report 04/2016: Serious accident at Clapham South tube station

Serious accident involving a passenger trapped in train doors and dragged at Clapham South station, 12 March 2015

www.gov.uk

 

[Richard White]

I liked the speedy door operation of the old M1 and H6 subway cars.

No one would charge these doors! And if they did, they'd learn REAL quick not to do that a second time.

The H4s were horrible. I can't count how many bruises I got from them.

 

[T3G]

The H4s were horrible. I can't count how many bruises I got from them.

I mean, they gave you more than sufficient notice the doors were closing. That sounds like it's on you.

 

[Northern Light]

The H4s were horrible. I can't count how many bruises I got from them.

From standing in the door when it was closing?