[crs1026]

I wonder if this will have them consider some sort of staging yard near Niagara Falls for the future. I know this is once in a lifetime thing, but if it shows that GO is a good option to go to the area, it may cause induced demand.

The penultimate once in a lifetime event will be the Toronto Maple Leafs Stanley Cup victory parade. Happily, ML has at least another MLSE team rebuild before they have to plan that one. (By then, the Leafs' fan base may fit in a peter Witt streetcar).

Seriously - if you are suggesting that we frame our transit investments around such one-time events, well.....you are contributing little to the discussion.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

The penultimate once in a lifetime event will be the Toronto Maple Leafs Stanley Cup victory parade. Happily, ML has at least another MLSE team rebuild before they have to plan that one. (By then, the Leafs' fan base may fit in a peter Witt streetcar).

Seriously - if you are suggesting that we frame our transit investments around such one-time events, well.....you are contributing little to the discussion.

- Paul

I am not suggesting anything framed as a one time thing. However,what I am saying is that if this is used a lot more just for this event, it could spill over into those same people taking it again for other reasons when visiting Niagara Falls such that it gets busy enough that parking a few trains in the area makes more sense than sending them back. However, by that time, there would be more than a few bus routes in the Niagara Falls area to get the visitors around.

 

[guavadelic]

I am not suggesting anything framed as a one time thing. However,what I am saying is that if this is used a lot more just for this event, it could spill over into those same people taking it again for other reasons when visiting Niagara Falls such that it gets busy enough that parking a few trains in the area makes more sense than sending them back. However, by that time, there would be more than a few bus routes in the Niagara Falls area to get the visitors around.

I've always wondered why Ontario doesnt explore building a new train station closer to the Falls and the attractions. Build the transit connections to where people actually want to go, not a station on the edge of the city.

It would most certainly be underground and thus really expensive, but considering Niagara Falls is one of most visited tourist attractions in the world i think it would be worthwhile investment.

 

[crs1026]

It would most certainly be underground and thus really expensive, .

I will stop you right there.

It may be a perfect solution, but if the same impact can be achieved at lower cost then it's not a good solution.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

I've always wondered why Ontario doesnt explore building a new train station closer to the Falls and the attractions. Build the transit connections to where people actually want to go, not a station on the edge of the city.

It would most certainly be underground and thus really expensive, but considering Niagara Falls is one of most visited tourist attractions in the world i think it would be worthwhile investment.

The rail line used to go to the falls; Fallsview Casino sits on the right-of-way.

A subway tunnel that would allow for GO bi-level rolling stock to support what is current 3x per day service is certainly not on.

Allowing for grade-change you're likely talking a descent starting somewhere near the edge of the old Niagara rail yard, and then running a bit over 4km more or less under Victoria Avenue.

That's not a penny under 5B and could be closer to 7. You couldn't use the current station either, there's no room between it and the falls to make the turn and descent.

***

More realistic options would include an LRT from the current station into NF Clifton Hill area, likely via Victoria Avenue.

Less realistic, but the old rail ROW is still there as far as the 420, in the form of a bike trail, some green space and parking.

You could recreate it (re lay rail); though you're probably limited to putting a station at the 420 or fairly close. Less expensive than the other options, and gets you 2km closer to 'The Falls' but you'd be running heavy rail mostly through quiet residential areas, i would expect some loud objections. You'd probably still have to bypass the existing station to connect to the old corridor smoothly.

***

If you want more transit in Niagara, first advocate for the investments necessary to get GO service up to hourly, 2-way, all-day at minimum; then for significant service improvements for Niagara Region Transit. A next-level investment might happen after those are in place, but not before.

 

[crs1026]

I am not suggesting anything framed as a one time thing. However,what I am saying is that if this is used a lot more just for this event, it could spill over into those same people taking it again for other reasons when visiting Niagara Falls such that it gets busy enough that parking a few trains in the area makes more sense than sending them back. However, by that time, there would be more than a few bus routes in the Niagara Falls area to get the visitors around.

I'm all in favour of expanding the service plan to encourage visitors to travel by transit, but offering a ramp up of service under landslide conditions for a heavily travelled event is foolhardy and won't win many converts.

In 2015 in Philadelphia, SEPTA had to introduce a lottery system because the demand for tickets to a papal visit was simply beyond what they could offer.

Pope John Paul II travelled extensively by train when visiting Canada. In 1984, GO Transit did run a shuttle service between parking lots in Maple and the celebrations at Downsview Park for pilgrims travelling to the papal mass.

In 2003, GO transit ran special trains to Downsview Park for the Sarsstock concert.... but these carried only the performers and their retinue. The half-million conceretgoers had to schlep it to the subway.

Lesser events like the Santa Claus parade strain GO's capacity - let alone the typical Saturday night after sports events and theatres let out. Or the Raptors victory celebration. And that's on their core network where they have a robust infrastructure. Proposing to add service to a high traffic event at an outlying location where the existing facilities are minimal and the capacity is severely constrained is biting off more than GO can chew.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

The rail line used to go to the falls; Fallsview Casino sits on the right-of-way.

A subway tunnel that would allow for GO bi-level rolling stock to support what is current 3x per day service is certainly not on.

Allowing for grade-change you're likely talking a descent starting somewhere near the edge of the old Niagara rail yard, and then running a bit over 4km more or less under Victoria Avenue.

That's not a penny under 5B and could be closer to 7. You couldn't use the current station either, there's no room between it and the falls to make the turn and descent.

Agreed. Local LRT would be a better investment, and would serve far more destinations as Niagara attractions are somewhat distributed.

That said, there is a potentially interesting solution in the ~$2B range. CN services that small industrial area near Thorold Town Line Road and Welland River, and CP has a short bit of rarely used track leading to the falls just on the other side of Welland River. A new station adjacent to the Marriott could be serviced by filling in that gap and bridging over the river.

 

[Willybru21]

Service using the CP line was proposed in 2004 with the idea of running trains directly to the casino, and again in 2011 when Metrolinx was looking at expanding the tourist service to Niagara.

There were also some other options studied, such as taking the CP route through Hamilton and diverting back to the CN line, or taking it much further through Welland and sending it up the Canal to the CN line:

 

[ShonTron]

The rail line used to go to the falls; Fallsview Casino sits on the right-of-way.

A subway tunnel that would allow for GO bi-level rolling stock to support what is current 3x per day service is certainly not on.

Allowing for grade-change you're likely talking a descent starting somewhere near the edge of the old Niagara rail yard, and then running a bit over 4km more or less under Victoria Avenue.

That's not a penny under 5B and could be closer to 7. You couldn't use the current station either, there's no room between it and the falls to make the turn and descent.

***

More realistic options would include an LRT from the current station into NF Clifton Hill area, likely via Victoria Avenue.

Less realistic, but the old rail ROW is still there as far as the 420, in the form of a bike trail, some green space and parking.

That was a separate railway, though – the Canada Southern/New York Central Railroad that was chiefly freight. There was a connecting track to the Grand Trunk/CN line that curved through Downtown Niagara Falls, but it was for freight transfers, not passenger rail.

CN’s through passenger trains to New York went via the Lehigh Valley RR, and never stopped close to the falls on either side. CP did partner with the NYC as they co-owned TH&B, but its through trains went through Smithville and Welland.

CN’s passenger excursions to the Falls (until the 1940s) typically included a boat ride from Toronto Harbour to Port Dalhousie, where electric NS&T trains continued to a point near the Rainbow Bridge border crossing.

 

[Northern Light]

Agreed. Local LRT would be a better investment, and would serve far more destinations as Niagara attractions are somewhat distributed.

That said, there is a potentially interesting solution in the ~$2B range. CN services that small industrial area near Thorold Town Line Road and Welland River, and CP has a short bit of rarely used track leading to the falls just on the other side of Welland River. A new station adjacent to the Marriott could be serviced by filling in that gap and bridging over the river.

View attachment 548917

I've thought of variations of that myself, as have others as @Willybru21 notes above.

The challenge is both the extent of any track upgrades required, and the face that the CP route out of Hamilton doesn't serve as much population en route.

****

That said, since you reminded me of the CN industrial trackage.......... I got to looking to see if one repurposed that, whether a shorter connection route could be found on mostly public land. I don't want to stray too far into fantasy territory....but to contribute to the sub thread at hand.........one could consider this:

CN Industrial track almost right to the falls via the Hydro corridor. (we know Hydro would love this idea, but a cursory ground-truthing suggests a single-track could be built w/o passing under existing pylons.

****

There's also a potential route along the Hydro Canal which has/had rail along some of it in the past. But that involves ~2km more track, and would likely displace a recreational trail.

Finally, I considered connecting the CN industrial track via the 420 ROW.

A very cursory assessment suggests there is room, though there would be at least one complex and costly fly under, and maybe 2.

It would cross a couple of major roads at-grade, but if service were only hourly, that doesn't seem unreasonable. A station could be sited within 2 blocks or so of the Rainbow Bridge.

That would shave 1.5km off the distance between The Falls tourist zone and the current station.

****

To be clear, I'm not backing any of these at the moment, I'll stick by the suggestions I made above; that said, there may be something to consider which if any of these choices merits consideration in the distant future and making sure to future-proof for same.

 

[crs1026]

A couple of things to consider -

1) the existing station is well situated to serve the through VIa-Amtrak service, and none of the options suggested (other than LRT/BRT) would improve the marketability of that service, or even match current marketability.... Niagara Falls NY has made investments in their passenger terminal, and GO is investing in upgrades on our side of the river. That says to me we should be discussing how to improve the existing station as a hub or connecting point to new services, not downgrading or abandoning it.

2) Solving QEW congestion not related to Niagara Falls tourism is a higher priority, I would argue, than improving or enlarging the Niagara Falls tourism industry... and doing so might improve access to NF anyways. A NF-tourism-centric investment that takes funding or priority away from other transportation needs may not serve the region well.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I've always wondered why Ontario doesnt explore building a new train station closer to the Falls and the attractions. Build the transit connections to where people actually want to go, not a station on the edge of the city.

It would most certainly be underground and thus really expensive, but considering Niagara Falls is one of most visited tourist attractions in the world i think it would be worthwhile investment.

I don't know how feasible it would be to re lay the line that used to run along Palmer Ave For a separate station for GO. The current station could be for the Maple Leaf with GO using it and the one closer to Clifton Hill.

I'm all in favour of expanding the service plan to encourage visitors to travel by transit, but offering a ramp up of service under landslide conditions for a heavily travelled event is foolhardy and won't win many converts.

In 2015 in Philadelphia, SEPTA had to introduce a lottery system because the demand for tickets to a papal visit was simply beyond what they could offer.

Pope John Paul II travelled extensively by train when visiting Canada. In 1984, GO Transit did run a shuttle service between parking lots in Maple and the celebrations at Downsview Park for pilgrims travelling to the papal mass.

In 2003, GO transit ran special trains to Downsview Park for the Sarsstock concert.... but these carried only the performers and their retinue. The half-million conceretgoers had to schlep it to the subway.

Lesser events like the Santa Claus parade strain GO's capacity - let alone the typical Saturday night after sports events and theatres let out. Or the Raptors victory celebration. And that's on their core network where they have a robust infrastructure. Proposing to add service to a high traffic event at an outlying location where the existing facilities are minimal and the capacity is severely constrained is biting off more than GO can chew.

- Paul

This does show a willingness for citizens to use the service. We just need the government to see it. I almost feel like there should be multiple levels to rail in the province. For some lines, a simple commuter style is what is needed. For others RER is needed. For others, regular service for long distance is what is needed. For Niagara Falls, having the ability to pivot for things like this, or the regular traffic of New Years celebrations would allow the area to be better served. Niagara Falls is not a commuting destination, but it is a vacation destination. That is not something GO was ever set up for.

A couple of things to consider -

1) the existing station is well situated to serve the through VIa-Amtrak service, and none of the options suggested (other than LRT/BRT) would improve the marketability of that service, or even match current marketability.... Niagara Falls NY has made investments in their passenger terminal, and GO is investing in upgrades on our side of the river. That says to me we should be discussing how to improve the existing station as a hub or connecting point to new services, not downgrading or abandoning it.

Via has been set upon a shoe string plan to be just relevant enough to somewhat exist. The location of the station is perfect for that. However, it is not that good for much else. I did start a thread about some sort of LRT in the Niagara Falls area on UT. Two lines from this station could exist to serve the top and bottom of the escarpment.

2) Solving QEW congestion not related to Niagara Falls tourism is a higher priority, I would argue, than improving or enlarging the Niagara Falls tourism industry... and doing so might improve access to NF anyways. A NF-tourism-centric investment that takes funding or priority away from other transportation needs may not serve the region well.

- Paul

I am not sure I understand this. How would a larger footprint be better for the traffic on the QEW?

 

[Bureaucromancer]

I really don't see the appeal of these proposals in that they are going to be really very costly and do a lot less for Niagara Falls in general than an LRT. These would all upgrade GO, at significatn expense while quite possibly hurting cross border passenger service... While most LRT alignments would really be rather useful to the Parks Compassion and city in general even setting the rail link aside...

Little reminder what light rail could look like: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/post-1841058; though I'm actually inclined to suggest this might be the time and place to give rubber tire APM a very close look between how much automation and frequency would benefit this corridor and the ability of rubber tires to be sold as aleviating the worst impact of elevated guideways in residential areas up by the station.

Edit: fixed link

 

[micheal_can]

I really don't see the appeal of these proposals in that they are going to be really very costly and do a lot less for Niagara Falls in general than an LRT. These would all upgrade GO, at significatn expense while quite possibly hurting cross border passenger service... While most LRT alignments would really be rather useful to the Parks Compassion and city in general even setting the rail link aside...

Little reminder what light rail could look like: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/post-1841058; though I'm actually inclined to suggest this might be the time and place to give rubber tire APM a very close look between how much automation and frequency would benefit this corridor and the ability of rubber tires to be sold as aleviating the worst impact of elevated guideways in residential areas up by the station.

Your link is bad.

An LRT would be a great investment in Niagara Falls.

Car free Niagara Falls

Has there ever been any proposals to make the major parts of the Niagara Falls area "car free"? The traffic is already very heavy there, and the roads are 4 lanes in those congested areas.

urbantoronto.ca

I started this thread with some of that in mind.

 

[SubHuman]

... Seriously - if you are suggesting that we frame our transit investments around such one-time events, well.....you are contributing little to the discussion.

Also, a one-time event that may well be a non-event if it's an overcast day.

If learning anything from new year’s day is that there will be a lot of people rushing to get out as soon as the eclipse is over except this time there will be no subways or GO trains nearby to at least help with the overload so the QEW will be massively jammed for hours (technically its on the other end of it this time around ).

Maybe, but even disregarding the weather, these kind of free event things can often be unpredictable for crowd size. I've been at Woodbine Park on Canada Day a few times when they've had bands playing all afternoon and into the evening. Often by the time it got dark the crowd had thinned out because some had gotten tired and left. Last year as it was it getting dark a huge crowd descended on the area only for the fireworks, with many of them aimlessly wandering into the park just because they saw a stage, obviously otherwise having no idea what was happening there, but completely jamming the place. There was no hope of being able to board a TTC vehicle in the vicinity, and I had to walk all the way up to the Coxwell subway station.