[Hydrogen]

it would probably just be smarter to pay a graffiti artist to do a nice piece that will not be tagged over, and you could get a new mural once every few years.

this will end up being cheaper for all parties.

it's also royalty free advertising if you're smart enough to tell the graffiti artist to do something related to your store to attract more business.

if you're not down with graffiti then you will ultimately be burned by it. in other words, if you can't beat em, hire em

by buffing a wall, you're just cleaning the canvas so to speak.

That's what is called extortion. Hope you can see that.

 

[akridz]

That's what is called extortion. Hope you can see that.

so you'd rather be extorted by the government when they fine you for not cleaning your wall?

 

[Hydrogen]

Did I say that?

So you agree that it is extortion? And condone it?

The government extortion you allude to would not exist in the first place if not for the spray paint extortion you noted in your earlier post.

 

[Roots_Energize]

Roots Energize: The cruelly limited fantasy life that so obviously spawns most of these visually derivative adolescent defacings can hardly be expected to generate "art", surely?

Fantasy life, what are you talking about? Graffiti is'nt just some fantasy , its actually a real culture! with real people sharing a love for real art, it takes alot of skill to be able to turn a bland wall into a masterpiece, some look so detailed they look like photos, theres so many different styles, its a language, highly sophisticated,

when you say "adolescent" you are implying that its some sort of immature thing the "oh grow up" mentality, thats ageism , the youth are very creative , talented which older people (that do have lots of knowledge,wisdom, ect.) can still learn from young people, vise versa, also many age groups do graff art, some of the older graff artist actually have moved onto big things, into art galleries , theyve made names for themselves all the way in europe and japan, they have clothing lines with there art work on it, and they make vynal figuers, sculptures and so on, so yeah people pay money to see this stuff,

you say defacing, well graff artist hit up mostly laneways, alleyways, and overpasses, they dont touch residential places like peoples homes and stuff, thats a no no in the graffiti world, they also paint on frieght trains , moving canvases , people from montreal could see an artists work all they way from toronto passing through Montreal , communicating back and forth, Montrealers by the way feel way less threatend by graff art probably due to art being a very large part of french culture, but yeah graffit art actually attracts tourists as well, people snap pictures all the time walking threw the alley ways, i see it all the time,


i can understand if people dont like the tags, but you cant deny that theres some amazing "pieces" which is short form for masterpiece, the murals,portraits , highly stylized words,names, messages ect.

so yeah theres no doubt its an art form, Europe is way ahead of us in Graffiti by the way.

 

[Roots_Energize]

Graff artist have also become tattoo artist aswell, some people get graff style tats

 

[Roots_Energize]

http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj278/wickedstyley/?action=view&current=535018373_862ef11ac8.jpg

check out these pictures, im not sure how to post them on the thread? tried to paste url in insert image but wont paste, wierd.

 

[adma]

Just because graffiti is overrated doesn't mean it's point-blank invalid.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Roots,

I don't think you need to defend graffiti in terms of it's conceivable artistic merit. In it's place graffiti can be attractive and stylish. The issue at hand is vandalism of private property. The world of graffiti you characterize where taggers and artist or non-artist stick to a code and produce visually attractive work in reality applies to an insignificantly small volume of actual production. As I said the vast majority of hits are low quality tags and work with the pure intent to vandalize or more inappropriately to a lesser degree signal gang turf wars or buildings of significance in the drug trade. In my experience the clean slate is actually more discouraging then the graffiti mural. Another sign that the code you speak of is largely compromised because taggers while initially hesitant eventually don't care about the underlying work.

 

[akridz]

Did I say that?

So you agree that it is extortion? And condone it?

The government extortion you allude to would not exist in the first place if not for the spray paint extortion you noted in your earlier post.

it's not extortion, because no one is forcing you to get a mural

you should be concentrating on what the cops are going to do about it, its their job not ours. if their current anti-graffiti program is not affective then maybe they should rethink their strategy.

 

[ganjavih]

Graffiti can be a very cool and colourful part of gritty urban life. There are places where it's appropriate (an old abandoned warehouse) and place where it's not (my home).

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Regardless of whose job it is, whether police (who *report* gang and other graffiti, and do not clean it up themselves, even if they may help organize community clean-ups) or municipal by-law officers, who *can* by ordering its removal in the face of fines, any property owner who is negligent and/or complacent in removing criminal graffiti from their property is an enabler of urban decay and complicit in the degradation of the public realm, and should be treated as such. It's the proper role of government to ensure that criminal activity like tagging is not tolerated, and is only extortion if you condone it and/or participate in it.

And to call the wilfull defacing of public and private property a "culture" is the biggest load of self-serving crock of shit I have ever heard of. So criminal activity constitutes "culture"? If by sub-culture, you mean, sub-human, then you're correct, along with being a moral and intellectual cripple.

 

[Glen]

Roots,

I don't think you need to defend graffiti in terms of it's conceivable artistic merit. In it's place graffiti can be attractive and stylish. The issue at hand is vandalism of private property. The world of graffiti you characterize where taggers and artist or non-artist stick to a code and produce visually attractive work in reality applies to an insignificantly small volume of actual production. As I said the vast majority of hits are low quality tags and work with the pure intent to vandalize or more inappropriately to a lesser degree signal gang turf wars or buildings of significance in the drug trade. In my experience the clean slate is actually more discouraging then the graffiti mural. Another sign that the code you speak of is largely compromised because taggers while initially hesitant eventually don't care about the underlying work.

Quoted for truth.

Roots I have to agree with TrickyRicky completely. While it may be a matter of semantics, if all the 'graffiti' was like what you posted I am sure that this thread would exist a a means to support and encourage it. In the context of this thread though, it is being referred as the 'tags' which in no way constitute art. They are nothing more than an eyesore and are a problem in the city.

 

[Urban Shocker]

General Idea, the artist collective who created the AIDS Sculpture that was displayed outside the ROM in 2006, encouraged the public to scrawl tags all over their artwork. In 1993, when the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art removed similar scrawled graffiti on the AIDS Sculpture, the artists who created it were shocked. They considered such graffiti additions to be an integral part of the work. And why not - tagging is certainly a more honest mode of expression than the pretentious "graffiti art" that has nothing much to do with art at all since it says nothing original.

 

[afransen]

Even graffiti with artistic merit is criminal if it is done without the knowledge and consent of the property owner. No one denies that there are examples of graffiti that could be described as art, but even that does not excuse vandalism.

 

[paraone]

Graffiti can be a very cool and colourful part of gritty urban life. There are places where it's appropriate (an old abandoned warehouse) and place where it's not (my home).

Thats the Phun Phactory(or 5 pointz as some call it) in Queens new york, it's actually not abandoned there are clothing manufacturers still operating inside. You need to do a sketch and take it to the office on the Davis Ave side and get a letter of permission from the co-ordinator. There is some shit stuff there but then there are some master pieces, some work by Phase2, Seen, Zephyr, Sabre, Bio, and Nicer. I've painted there a few times, it's a great example of what can happen with some community involvement and a little determination.

another great example is the Jackie Robinson PS in Harlem at the corner of 105/park. Again you need to show a sketch to the school and get a letter but it's basically become the hall of fame for NYC. Some great work can be found there.

For the adventurous try going to the Hunts point market in the Bronx, there are huge pieces running down the side of the building(all legal) and members of TATS crew even hold seminars and such at the community centre down the street. It's been totally embraced by the community and is a great thing that I wish we had here.