[drum118]

The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TTC New 248 LRT’s.

The 2 articles that were in the Toronto Star this past work along with the presentation on the current fleet at TTC April 19 meeting, I expect to see the cancellation of the rebuilding program for the CLRV’s and an RFP being issue for new LRT’s now the subway train is out of the way at this month meeting.

These 2 articles are laying the groundwork for the coming announcements and it is coming at a good time also.

This well be welcome news for the public that requires accessibility transportation on routes that cannot be service today with the highfloor streetcar fleet.

Someway, I hope my letters to Primer Dalton McGuinty, Harinder Takhar Minister of Transportation and Dwight Duncan Minister of Finance that were sent to then before the March 23rd budget speech has something to do with the announcement to proceed with total replacement of the current fleet by 2012. I did not menace words in the letters about funding TTC to purchase these new LRT’s, but meeting MTO requirement that *ALL* transit vehicles to be 100% accessibly by 2012 as mandated by the Government own ODA.

I think Ottawa new LRT’s that are to be built by Siemens has some bearing also.

Cutting service by couple 2 cars together is not going to solve the bunching problem and that can only be done taking lanes away from the cars. I do agree with the comment on the smartcards. TTC can operate 2 LRT’s together with one driver, but the problem will be the public. Spadina needs pair’s cars today as the demand is there now let alone for pair’s of the new LRT’s.

It was stated at June 22nd 2005 meeting that headway would increase because of the extra carrying capacity and that is a great mistake. You need that extra carrying capacity as well the current headway to meet the increase of ridership demand in the coming years.

If you cut service, you are still going to have the same problems that the riders have today with crush loads and sardine cars. Then TTC has already cut service for the Queen St line years ago and that is why there is less service on the line. St Clair has seen decrease of service over the past years also. TTC is already looking at cutting service on St Clair once the new LRT’s arrive and that is a great mistake as it will back up SOS claim from day one for the ROW. It will continue the tread that is there today where riders have stop using TTC King and Queen lines as they can walk their trip faster than wait for a streetcar to show up that is not pack full as well caught up in the gridlock on those route.

TTC has to replace the current fleet on a one to one base period, otherwise, it will never handle the need for more service let alone expansion and to do so is narrow minded.

If Toronto is to be a Transit City as call for, then it must start reinvesting in TTC and TTC become more fugal how money is spent and stop worry about saving jobs of a supplier who cannot compete on the open market. It time to move forward to meet the needs of the public with more transit service that is reliably compare to what is offer today and the delivery of 248 LRT’s by 2012 would be a major step. You keep the ALRV’s as spares until they are due to be retired by 2020 as well for special events like Expo 2015 if Toronto gets it. Need to keep a few CLRV’s for charters like the PCC’s.

Dave

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

I did not menace words in the letters about funding TTC

Good. I hate menacing words.

Then TTC has already cut service for the Queen St line years ago and that is why there is less service on the line.

There is less service because there is reduced service? Brilliant deduction!


Okay, now in all seriousness:

TTC is already looking at cutting service on St Clair once the new LRT’s arrive and that is a great mistake as it will back up SOS claim from day one for the ROW.

I believe the TTC has stated that they can provide the same service with a few less CLRVs because of the ROW. Fewer streetcars does not necessarily equate less service.

 

[cacruden]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

For example,

If the total route took 2:00 and the ROW reduced the trip to 1:50 -- assuming that the average vehicle stops every 5 minutes or so -- then it takes 2 less LRT vehicles for the same service.

 

[drum118]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

If the total route took 2:00 and the ROW reduced the trip to 1:50 -- assuming that the average vehicle stops every 5 minutes or so -- then it takes 2 less LRT vehicles for the same service.
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True, but what about the ridership?

You are now forcing more riders onto less vehicles and continue the sardine effect. The idea is to cut down on the over crowding with the ROW.

Anything else is unacceptable.

 

[Chuck100]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

then it takes 2 less LRT vehicles for the same service

You are now forcing more riders onto less vehicles and continue the sardine effect. The idea is to cut down on the over crowding with the ROW.

This is one of the trickiest elements of transit planning to comprehend, but it is absolutely true that even when the number of vehicles is reduced, the same number of seats can be maintained as long as travel times are reduced. This is easier to understand when the situation is simplified. Let's look at the subway, and pretend that 100% of the passengers board at Finch and get off at Union with no stations in between. Let's say that 500 people per minute pass through the turnstyles, which is 1000 people every 2 minutes. Clearly one train has to leave Finch every 2 minutes.

If the trains travelled 5 km/h the entire way down, they would have to be very close together in order to ensure that there is always a train there. Each train has 1000 people on board because it leaves every 2 minutes, but there would clearly be many trains in the tunnel between Finch and Union. At any given time, there could be tens of thousands of passengers being "stored" on the dozens of trains between Finch and Union.

Now let's say that the trains travelled 500 km/h. When the next train is ready to leave Finch with 1000 passengers two minutes later, the first train is already at Union Station because it travels so fast. Therefore at any given time, there are at most 1000 people being stored on trains between Finch and Union. A train can still be there every 2 minutes when only 2 trainsets are used because each travels so fast.

The situation on St. Clair is somewhere in between because the streetcars are only being sped up by a small amount. However small that difference may be, it translates into less people being stored in the system, which means fewer streetcars have to be used. And since the streetcars still operate every 5 minutes, they will be no more crowded then than they are now.

 

[doady]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

Drum118's point is that the ROW has the potential to increase the ridership on St. Clair and if the TTC does not increase the capacity of the route this potential will never be realized.

What is more important? Increasing ridership or saving money? Personally, I think the TTC's cost recovery ratio is ridiculous enough as it is...

 

[drum118]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

TTC own figures of 102 riders per CLRV at peak time would see more service on the road after the ROW is built. Otherwise what good is TTC Ridership Growth Plan?

To get more people to use transit, you must put more space out there for them to get on the system in the first place. It is not fun to have to standup for 30 minutes that can take a rider to get from one point to another point. This is on top of being pack in like sardines or a herd of cattle.

Service is base on a single point or a section where the ridership is at its highest point, not the low end.

St. Clair has many high points along its routes compare to some routes that has one point and therefore you need the extra capacity to handle these points.

Currently, TTC uses 16 CLRV’s every 3 minutes at am peak time, 9 every 5 minutes for midday and 13 every 4 minutes at pm peak time and this is only between St Clair W and Gunn Rd with a round trip of 9.77 km. Running time is 46 minutes with a layover of 2 minutes. Average speed is 12.2 km.

I don’t have any current figure to work with for the current setup, but I have been on the 512 for both pm peak and midday service where there was over 115 riders on the car at any given time from Lansdowne to St Clair W Station or going the opposite direction to the point riders could not get on the car.

If TTC is carrying 15 x 115 per hour with no room for other riders to get on at other stop using 4 minutes service, this would workout that you have high load factor is some where around 2,500. Therefore you need service to be every 2.4 minutes and need 20 CLRV’s.

If you can cut the run time with the ROW, you will still need 18 CLRV’s and you still don’t have the carrying capacity to attract more riders. Therefore you will need no less than 20 CLRV’s for pm peak time and that 7 more than what there today.

Now when the whole line is place, that will be another factor that comes into play.

 

[Suicidal Gingerbread Man]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

drum.

I'd just relax. The TTC never precluded the idea of increased capacity. They even have some surplus CLRVs that could be used in the future. The point is that the ROW improves their efficiency. Providing the same service with two less CLRVs is quite the cost savings with the same capacity. Obviously capacity needs to be adjusted based on demand.

 

[wyliepoon]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

National Post

Link to article

Expo bid drives TTC to buy 96 streetcars
100 others to be refurbished: Service expansion in anticipation of winning bid for 2015 World's Fair

Susan Kirwin
National Post


Thursday, April 20, 2006


The Toronto Transit Commission yesterday agreed to buy 96 new, low-riding streetcars and refurbish dozens more of its existing stock, which will be coupled together on busy routes, as it prepares for a crush of possible visitors if the city succeeds in its bid for Expo 2015.

The commission agreed to buy 96 streetcars from Siemens Transportation Systems of Germany. Another 100 of the TTC's existing streetcars will be refurbished, including about 75 that will be coupled at a cost of $100,000 each, in a bid to help stop them from bunching up during rush hour.

Transit advocates are not happy with the refurbishing and coupling plan, preferring that all-new streetcars be bought.

"It seems like a foolish expenditure for a short period of time," said Steve Munro of the transit advocacy group the Rocket Riders.

King Street has been discussed as a possible site for the new two-car streetcars.

Mr. Munro said the coupled cars would not fit at either Spadina or Union Station: "It's a nice idea, but it doesn't physically fit."

Activists criticized the TTC for investing more money in its 30-year-old fleet, which will be extended by 10 years.

"This is a waste of time," said Rocket Rider Steve Fisher.

"The TTC is throwing money here and there; we need to buy them off the shelf."

But the TTC officials said it is the only option they have.

Robert Boutilier, the commission's deputy general manager, said the streetcars are needed to maintain service until the new cars come in.

TTC engineers need to design new cars that will be compatible with Toronto's rail system.

Tracks have been upgraded and will be good for another 25 years, Mr. Boutilier said.

"It's not just a case of taking a car from the factory and putting it on the rails," said Mr. Boutilier, citing derailments in other cities that have bought streetcars off the shelf.

"Suppliers gloss over these issues. That's why we are being very careful from an engineering perspective."

The project is expected to take a minimum of 10 years.

"The need to refurbish is inescapable," said Mitch Stambler, the TTC's manager of service planning. "No matter how much we want to buy new cars, we have to rebuild."

Mr. Stambler said Toronto's bid for the 2015 World Expo makes it necessary to ensure the city has streetcar capacity.

"We might have to move 20,000 people per hour in both directions," Mr. Stambler said. "If we have to move that kind of volume, we would have to have coupling."

The new streetcars will have a "low-floor" style and will be fully accessible. All streetcars must be fully accessible by 2024 as a part of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act.

The transit commission is also being criticized for being slow on accessibility. The refurbished cars will not be accessible.

"They are still behind with the times and they are still being closed-minded," Mr. Fisher said.

"They should have been discussing this 10 years ago."

 

[Darkstar416]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

I'm surprised that the National Post has the scoop on this. Was Bombardier in the running for this?

 

[rbtaylor]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

"This is a waste of time," said Rocket Rider Steve Fisher.

"The TTC is throwing money here and there; we need to buy them off the shelf."

One would think a Rocket Rider would be aware of the fact that TTC cannot buy off the shelf hardware and use it without substantial modifications to either the track or the vehicle -- thus it is not really off the shelf anymore.

I don't see how staging the new purchases and keeping around a number of older units for rush hour and peek service is a bad thing. Yes, more expensive, but good from a business point of view as an insurance policy.

We know the old units inside an out, including their faults. We do not know the weak points of the new units (how they fail, frequency of failure, workarounds, etc.)


Imagine replacing every single bus with the original Orion VII model that was received in a 2 year period. Nearly every bus in service with a broken back door during the first winter.

New is bad. New brings unknowns. Unknowns wreak havoc with service.

 

[astObs]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

When do the press releases come out? No one else seems to have this news.

Hmm, needs more deets. How much do the new ones cost, what modifications are being made to them, when do we get them, and what will they look like.

 

[kpad]

Re: The Ground Work is Being Lay for the Announcements of TT

The Liberals lose, and then Bombardier loses out on the Toronto bid. Coincidence?