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TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Yes. This is true as well. I'd never say our current system is adequate, just that people whining about how crowded a platform is or how they couldn't get on the first train because it was full have obviously never been to a "World Class City," where I've had that happen to me multiple times. NYC having a huge rapid transit system doesn't mean people can get on a train in midtown Manhattan at rush hour and expect a seat. The trains fill up heading south, just like they do here. But here everyone gets all, "It's not fair that I got on at Eglinton and couldn't get a seat!" It is fair. Because the system serves more than just you and you're in the middle of a long, crowded line.

And when the system gets huger, and the Crosstown opens, it'll probably get worse. It's a Catch 22, at best.
Click to expand...
I do agree that Line 5 will only make crowding worse. That's not because expansion in general makes crowding worse, but adding more branch lines that feed an already overcrowded trunk line will. It to the misplaced priorities in this city and the inexplicable reluctance to building the third downtown subway line that was planned way back in the 60s.
 
They come out with these reports every now and then - nice reminders the rest of planet earth governs transit entirely differently the way we do and yet we persist with absurd local "arguments" about some anonymous Queen's Park bureaucrat being able to decide how often some local TTC bus runs.

As I'm sure I've said upthread, I think "uploading" the subway to the province would make sense as part of a larger plan or regionalization but doing it in this piecemeal manner is fairly meaningless. I support it at a superficial level without supporting the government's apparent motivations. It would be nice to think it could usher in some new age of cooperation and subsidization but mark this post because I expect we'll be back right here - reading some report from Neptis or Pembina or U of T or Ryerson or whomever, arguing that perhaps a regional transit system maybe kinda makes sense for the GTA, maybe - well before October 2021.
 
christiesplits said:
Halton Region is considering merging transit services.

www.oakvillenews.org

Region explores amalgamation of municipal transit services

Study looks at governance and service delivery alternatives
www.oakvillenews.org www.oakvillenews.org
Click to expand...

In principle, I support creating 'Halton Region Transit' as there's just enormous sense from an operation perspective and a customer perspective.

The concern I would have is that Halton Region has not been particularly progressive on urban design or modal share, and absent a binding agreement between existing players and Halton that transit service might actually be reduced, or under-funded.

Approving a service model first, that shows a material improvement in service is key to making this the positive exercise that it could and should be.
 
Northern Light said:
In principle, I support creating 'Halton Region Transit' as there's just enormous sense from an operation perspective and a customer perspective.

The concern I would have is that Halton Region has not been particularly progressive on urban design or modal share, and absent a binding agreement between existing players and Halton that transit service might actually be reduced, or under-funded.

Approving a service model first, that shows a material improvement in service is key to making this the positive exercise that it could and should be.
Click to expand...
How do YRT and DRT do it?
 
Northern Light said:
In principle, I support creating 'Halton Region Transit' as there's just enormous sense from an operation perspective and a customer perspective.

The concern I would have is that Halton Region has not been particularly progressive on urban design or modal share, and absent a binding agreement between existing players and Halton that transit service might actually be reduced, or under-funded.

Approving a service model first, that shows a material improvement in service is key to making this the positive exercise that it could and should be.
Click to expand...
I'm not quite sure how to phrase this... but you will get my gist:

The municipalities that make up Halton Region are not exactly on the forefront of transit, urban design or anything else themselves. This is largely because they are all the richest, suburban, and often times most regressive-thinking municipalities in the greater region. You could certainly say I'm wrong on that, but compound it with them all being small, suburban cities, and it becomes hard for any one of them individually garner any substantial demand for more service without a major rethink. There is neither a critical mass of people, nor any interest from the majority of their constituents. YRT, for all its flaws, actually has direction behind it, and that ought to be attributed to 'blurring the lines' between munis and looking at things at a higher level than any one municipality could.

My point here being, whatever Burlington, Oakville and Milton have strung together transit-wise is a sort of bare minimum already- they exist in a sort of malaise. If anything, amalgamating these will bring some order and rational thought to bus services. I essentially have a very hard time seeing transit getting worse if it is taken out of these particular cities' hands. And, things just change when you aren't thinking about just 8 arterials and a handful of destinations per city.
 
Dan416 said:
How do YRT and DRT do it?
Click to expand...

YRT:

Not well at all, their service levels are broadly anemic outside of a handful of corridors like Yonge, Jane and Highway 7. There is no overnight (24-hour) service at all, there have long been 'plans' for a 15-minute service network, which are on pace to be delivered by the 2040s, maybe.

DRT: Increasingly good. The answer is a political shift. The initial regional service was very poor, but the combination of limited higher service (Pulse) and significant increases in post-secondary students and Lakeshore GO service reliance have driven ridership up and shifted the politics.

At this point DRT has (very limited) overnight service (vs none in YRT, Oakville or Burlington) and has 3 routes that generally run at every 15M or better, with a lot more of that likely coming this fall.

***

Niagara Region Transit's amalgamation is the one I had in mind when I talked about approving a service model with the reorganization. Now its early days there yet as to whether that model is delivered on, but that was my thinking.

****

Brampton Transit (not regional) is the champ at suburban service levels at this point, and again, its a shift resulting from the initial investments in Zum, from a high student demographic and other demographic changes that have also driven ridership. The key though is Brampton Council then getting into a virtuous cycle of service improvement to meet demand than in turn creates more demand.
 
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Sunnyside said:
I'm not quite sure how to phrase this... but you will get my gist:

The municipalities that make up Halton Region are not exactly on the forefront of transit, urban design or anything else themselves. This is largely because they are all the richest, suburban, and often times most regressive-thinking municipalities in the greater region. You could certainly say I'm wrong on that, but compound it with them all being small, suburban cities, and it becomes hard for any one of them individually garner any substantial demand for more service without a major rethink. There is neither a critical mass of people, nor any interest from the majority of their constituents. YRT, for all its flaws, actually has direction behind it, and that ought to be attributed to 'blurring the lines' between munis and looking at things at a higher level than any one municipality could.

My point here being, whatever Burlington, Oakville and Milton have strung together transit-wise is a sort of bare minimum already- they exist in a sort of malaise. If anything, amalgamating these will bring some order and rational thought to bus services. I essentially have a very hard time seeing transit getting worse if it is taken out of these particular cities' hands. And, things just change when you aren't thinking about just 8 arterials and a handful of destinations per city.
Click to expand...

I get ya, and you'll get no argument from me that transit can and should be better in Halton Region, which largely rides on the current local governments.

But ya know.........

The main E-W route in Burlington doesn't look so bad: (generally every 12M or better)


The main N-S Route (Brant) is every 15M until 8pm on weekdays, admittedly, 30M weekend service is not so great.


For Oakville's part, I would argue the first route to look at is Lakeshore, this route runs N-S from Oakville GO and then E-W on Lakeshore

14 & 14A Lakeshore West

www.oakvilletransit.ca www.oakvilletransit.ca

Its every 15M on weekdays (daytime), then 30M on evenings and weekends.

My concern would be clearly both the need to get weekend services up to 15M on those 'flagship' routes. But is that what happens, do we even harmonize 15M service up to the Burlington standard on weekdays or drop it to Oakville's?

I'm pro regional transit, I just want them to approve a service model that shows a clear, funded, committment to service improvement when they approve going regional.
 
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Northern Light said:
I get ya, and you'll get no argument from me that transit can and should be better in Halton Region, which largely rides on the current local governments.

But ya know.........

The main E-W route in Burlington doesn't look so bad: (generally every 12M or better)


The main N-S Route (Brant) is every 15M until 8pm on weekdays, admittedly, 30M weekend service is not so great.


For Oakville's part, I would argue the first route to look at is Lakeshore, this route runs N-S from Oakville GO and then E-W on Lakeshore

14 & 14A Lakeshore West

www.oakvilletransit.ca www.oakvilletransit.ca

Its every 15M on weekdays (daytime), then 30M on evenings and weekends.

My concern would be clearly both the need to get weekend services up to 15M on those 'flagship' routes. But is that what happens, do we even harmonize 15M service up to the Burlington standard on weekdays or drop it to Oakville's?

I'm pro regional transit, I just want them to approve a service model that shows a clear, funded, committment to service improvement when they approve going regional.
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I agree, this would be great to see. I am also glad to see some routes do exist that are popular; I have looked at some before, and they definitely offer some utility.

I guess the way I see an upload like this happening would be that the munis just want it off their hands- they have less interest in whether it results in better transit. Thus, I don't think a comprehensive service model would materialize before any agency forms- It just isn't an expectation the stakeholders would press on. With that said, I do think we would see a service plan developed shortly after, and I think that's fine.

As for what that would look like...

I think you mostly nailed the routes that need attention. Frequency is tolerable, but could be better. You are missing Trafalgar for Oakville- perhaps the main N/S artery there, and someday for Milton to the north too (ending at the proposed Trafalgar GO and whatnot...).

My elephant in the room is sorting out Milton- both transit within, and to/from it from the South. The gap between Milton and Burl/Oakville will continue to close, and there hasn't been nearly enough attention on how people are going to travel between. I can't really say what needs to be done within Milton, besides that some e/w artery is going to emerge as a trunk into the rest of the GTA.

Burlington is a funny case I think about sometimes. Any agency will have to figure out how it interacts with the HSR, and if we should/should not treat Hamilton as a major terminus for the Halton network (rather than, say, Aldershot...) BT runs into Hamilton, yes, but considerations change at a regional scale. I do wonder if amalgamating BT with HSR is the right move instead (given there are two overlapping/shared routes between the respective downtowns), but it isn't necessarily an obvious move given the many non-transit things needed... regardless, York/Fairview & Lakeshore/Beach ought to get some attention.

On some level, I also hope we aren't counting on Metrolinx to provide all the service to Waterdown via the Dundas "BRT", but I won't hold my breath. The entire Waterdown-Aldershot area just feels very dis-integrated and I hope it doesn't remain the status quo. But that's getting into the weeds.

The work for a Halton Agency is cut out for them. That much is clear. The fact that a very large proportion of the region will be contiguously urban should ensure that the agency gets bold from the get-go. For any planners, it will be immediately apparent that transportation demand will rise very, very quickly and for a long time.
 
Taken as a whole I really have to think that the best feasible approach probably is Halton / Burlington remaining independent of HSR but operating a significant amount of service into Hamilton. What I do wonder is whether that suggests that Waterdown service ought to be contracted to Halton (it probably should, on much the same basis that the TTC operates (and formally did more) into York).
 
Bureaucromancer said:
Taken as a whole I really have to think that the best feasible approach probably is Halton / Burlington remaining independent of HSR but operating a significant amount of service into Hamilton. What I do wonder is whether that suggests that Waterdown service ought to be contracted to Halton (it probably should, on much the same basis that the TTC operates (and formally did more) into York).
Click to expand...
This gets at the crux of the issue- whoever runs transit in the Waterdown-Aldershot area, would do best if it’s only one agency.
 
Wow! Stunned to see so many experts on Halton Region with such levels of insight.

I believe a fair amount of planning has been going on for some time in regards to these questions. Both Burlington and Oakville adjust schedules at least yearly to reflect changes on demand and adjustments with interactions with HSR (Burlington] and regional GO services. In 2019 major changes were made and ridership numbers have continued to increase. I believe the last fiscal year was a record for ridership. So, regardless of view points, the cities do not quite have their heads solely buried up the tailpipes of automobile travel.

Some considerations to take into future planning would include the objectives of a regional service and how they might be best served, and the completion of a couple of major Brontë Creek bridges which will improve some east-west connections. In addition, changes to GO Bus routes within the region and increases in levels of service on the existing GO lines, either eastbound or westbound will influence ridership to a degree.

However, let’s not lose track of what is obvious. And that is the fact that the region is primarily an auto based transit region, and not likely to radically change quickly. Yes, there are areas where densities are and will increase and transit services will grow to service those areas. Yes, transit levels have been increasing, and that is a positive. But you can balance those gains against the abject failures of the New Street Bike Lanes a few years ago and the current Speers Road Bike Lanes. There clearly seem to be limits as to what transit the local citizens are interested in.

As for amalgamation with HSR or Hamilton. Spare us, the worst run city in Ontario. Many in Flamborough and Waterdown rue the day the Province imposed that fate on them. Halton would have been the better option.

Although at first glance, integrating Burlington and Oakville transit seems to appeal with connections to the north and south of the QEW and Regional GO Rail, the connections with Milton would differ I think. Milton is not as geographically connected to either Burlington or Oakville. Outside of GO connections along Trafalgar Road, express services along Regional Road 25 (Hwy 25), and Guelph Line connecting and linking with some existing transit nodes would be useful I believe.

The question re transit options for Waterdown is a challenge. The Dundas BRT would be an excellent connector, but everything I hear indicates it will not be much faster then the local bus, no separated lanes etc. The old HWY 6 route into Hamilton would be a fit, and is currently served by GO bus The upgrades to North-South routes into Burlington currently underway, would and could warrant bus connections to GO Rail in Burlington and connections to E-W Halton Bus routes. But I think you are beginning to reach geographically in terms of mass transit appeal.

Another source problem will be the state and possible improvements to the QEW - 403 -407 connections from Oakville through to the RedHill Expressway, and also
past Main Street (Hamilton] and up the mountain past the Linc to and from Brantford. The overspill traffic through Burlington (and can and will include Oakville as the Wycroft bridge completes) leads to long lineups on Lakeshore, New, Fairview and Plains Road as motorists are trying to funnel through Burlington to avoid ongoing backups ,on those highways. Which does nothing for some of those transit links we are looking at..

We’ll see what happens. And maybe nothing. The discussions about the future of regional government in Halton continue and I am sure Doug is waiting for the most political opportune time to make an announcement.
 
Combining services between Oakville and Burlington makes a lot of sense for usability. Oakville already runs multiple routes fairly deep into Burlington, so extending them and combining routes where appropriate will avoid unnecessary transfers. In an ideal world, I'd expect the following corridors to have frequent service, other routes would of course be required for local service:

E/W
  • Dundas - Oakville Uptown Core to Dundas St Park and Ride (Existing Oakville Route 5/5a)
  • Upper Middle (crossing Bronte Creek via the QEW) - Oakville GO to Burlington GO (Oakville Route 6, Burlington Route 12)
  • Plains/Fairview/Wyecroft/Speers/Cornwall - Clarkson GO to Hamilton GO (Burlington Route 1, Oakville Route 4)
    • This likely needs to be split into separate routes at Burlington Go and Oakville Go to increase reliability, I would even look into TTC style rush-hour bus lanes on fairview between Guelph and King Rd
    • This parallels GO Train service so really just serves as a local connector between the GO stations
  • New/Rebecca - Oakville GO to Downtown Burlington (Burlington Route 10)
    • This corridor is underserved and hits lots of recreation and community destinations
  • Lakeshore - Downtown Oakville to Downtown Burlington (Transfer to HSR for East Hamilton Access)
    • This can likely be less frequent than the others, but should exist to provide access to lakefront recreation areas
N/S:
  • Brant - Downtown Burlington to Waterdown(via Dundas)
    • Stopping at Burlington GO
  • Guelph - Downtown Burlington to Dundas St Park and Ride
    • Additional service from Burlington GO to Milton Via Derry Rd
  • Walkers - New St to Dundas St Park and Ride
  • Appleby - Lakeshore&Kenwood to Dundas
    • Stopping at Appleby GO
  • Bronte Rd - Lakeshore to Milton GO
    • Additional service starting from Bronte GO
  • Third Line - Lakeshore to OTMH
  • Trafalgar - Downtown Oakville to Steeles
    • Additional Frequency between Oakville GO and Trafalgar St Park and Ride
Milton is harder to integrate and would need its own independent routes with very few crossing into Oakville and Burlington, but there could be cost benefits to scale for admin and infrastructure purposes.
 
tsm1072 said:
Milton is harder to integrate and would need its own independent routes with very few crossing into Oakville and Burlington, but there could be cost benefits to scale for admin and infrastructure purposes.
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Oakville keeps talking about constructing a master planned community & transit hub in the Palermo area. It'll probably serve as a transfer zone between Milton and Oakville/ Burlington. Probably have a bus running up & down Reginal road 25 between Dundas and Derry.
www.gta-homes.com

Palermo Village Master-Planned Community | GTA-Homes

Palermo Village Master-Planned Community is a pre-construction mixed-use development in Oakville. Access to the best floor plans and prices.
www.gta-homes.com www.gta-homes.com

MX already runs a GO bus between Oakville GO and Milton GO along Trafalgar Rd. If Halton amalgamated it's transit, would they take over this route from MX?
 
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