[robmausser]

So in other words, on a per-capita basis the 905 governments send more money to their transit system than Toronto does to the TTC?

Yes, if you break it up per rider the ttc gets the least amount of money, but if you look at it simply from a transit system as a whole the TTC gets the most money.

The other transit systems get less funding than the TTC but they are significantly smaller in ridership.

 

[robmausser]

Not necessarily per-capita, but on a per-rider basis the 905 definitely has to spend more. The sum of it may be less than what Toronto pays simply because on a total basis it has more people riding the system and a bigger population so naturally it's going to be bigger and have more money being spent on it but proportionately it could be smaller than what a Regional municipality has to spend when you break it down by how much of a subsidy is required to provide the service for each transit user.

In 2014 the TTC had a $0.78 subsidy per rider (reference)

Compared to YRT which is apparently $4.49 per rider (reference)

But on a total subsidy basis the total subsidy given to Toronto was: $534m (reference)

YRT's total subsidy was only: $93m (reference)

So Toronto is spending more in total subsidies but on a per capita basis let's take a look:

YRT pop: 1.033 million (2011)

Toronto pop: 2.615 million (2011)

York Region: 93/1.033 = $90 per person

Toronto: 534/2.615 = $204 per person

Thus Toronto spends more per capita, but York Region spends more per transit rider.

I think the most correct distinction should however be per rider and not capita.

Who cares how many people live in the area if they aren't taking transit?

The most fair assessment is by rider.

Excellent breakdown however.

 

[doady]

Yeah, Toronto would not benefit in any way from integrating with 905. TTC would not benefit by intergrating with MiWay who provides a huge amount of service in Etobicoke. Think of all that money the City of Toronto is saving by providing duplicate bus service along Bloor and Burnhamthorpe that MT already provides just as well if not better, John Tory must be laughing all the way to bank.

And I am sure the residents of Malvern and Rexdale and Jane-Finch and other isolated communities along the border are also grateful at the increased work opportunities they have with the 905 workplaces eliminated as an option because of the double fare. Because who the hell works in the 905 anyways? The only place people work is in the Toronto, because it's the centre of the universe.

 

[BMO]

Yeah, Toronto would not benefit in any way from integrating with 905. TTC would not benefit by intergrating with MiWay who provides a huge amount of service in Etobicoke. Think of all that money the City of Toronto is saving by providing duplicate bus service along Bloor and Burnhamthorpe that MT already provides just as well if not better, John Tory must be laughing all the way to bank.

And I am sure the residents of Malvern and Rexdale and Jane-Finch and other isolated communities along the border are also grateful at the increased work opportunities they have with the 905 workplaces eliminated as an option because of the double fare. Because who the hell works in the 905 anyways? The only place people work is in the Toronto, because it's the centre of the universe.

Agreed, the biggest advantage of an integrated system, aside from the obvious elimination of a double fare, would be the reduction in redundancies that ultimately split the ridership between two transit systems instead of having one route that scoops up all that ridership.

 

[Adjei]

Yeah, Toronto would not benefit in any way from integrating with 905. TTC would not benefit by intergrating with MiWay who provides a huge amount of service in Etobicoke. Think of all that money the City of Toronto is saving by providing duplicate bus service along Bloor and Burnhamthorpe that MT already provides just as well if not better, John Tory must be laughing all the way to bank.

And I am sure the residents of Malvern and Rexdale and Jane-Finch and other isolated communities along the border are also grateful at the increased work opportunities they have with the 905 workplaces eliminated as an option because of the double fare. Because who the hell works in the 905 anyways? The only place people work is in the Toronto, because it's the centre of the universe.

Ya I find it funny how people in Toronto and TTC think that nobody in Toronto works in the 905 and somehow all the jobs are in Toronto and only people from the 905 work in Toronto. Do they know how many people in Toronto work in the 905 regions and would benefit from fare integration where they would pay cheaper instead of having to pay double fare to cross Steeles. Most people who work factory jobs in the GTA for instance need to travel to 905 region to work because that's where most of the jobs are. Not everyone is commuting into Toronto, there are many people who work outside of Toronto and many who depend on public transportation to get to their jobs. Toronto and the people in it have an insular way of thinking which is hindering much progress in this region.

 

[BMO]

Ya I find it funny how people in Toronto and TTC think that nobody in Toronto works in the 905 and somehow all the jobs are in Toronto and only people from the 905 work in Toronto. Do they know how many people in Toronto work in the 905 regions and would benefit from fare integration where they would pay cheaper instead of having to pay double fare to cross Steeles. Most people who work factory jobs in the GTA for instance need to travel to 905 region to work because that's where most of the jobs are. Not everyone is commuting into Toronto, there are many people who work outside of Toronto and many who depend on public transportation to get to their jobs. Toronto and the people in it have an insular way of thinking which is hindering much progress in this region.

Probably because we're on a urban planning forum with fairly well off people in professions like Architecture, Urban Design, Engineering, etc who can afford to live near where they work, or at least have the choice of where they want to live... so it's hard to imagine that there are people who actually have a better commute from York Region than having to bus in from western Etobicoke (due to socio-economic restraints) and transfer 3 or 4 times to get to their work.. This forum is definitely skewed. I bet if you spoke to people on the street you'd get a vastly different response.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ya I find it funny how people in Toronto and TTC think that nobody in Toronto works in the 905 and somehow all the jobs are in Toronto and only people from the 905 work in Toronto. Do they know how many people in Toronto work in the 905 regions and would benefit from fare integration where they would pay cheaper instead of having to pay double fare to cross Steeles. Most people who work factory jobs in the GTA for instance need to travel to 905 region to work because that's where most of the jobs are. Not everyone is commuting into Toronto, there are many people who work outside of Toronto and many who depend on public transportation to get to their jobs. Toronto and the people in it have an insular way of thinking which is hindering much progress in this region.

Probably because we're on a urban planning forum with fairly well off people in professions like Architecture, Urban Design, Engineering, etc who can afford to live near where they work, or at least have the choice of where they want to live... so it's hard to imagine that there are people who actually have a better commute from York Region than having to bus in from western Etobicoke (due to socio-economic restraints) and transfer 3 or 4 times to get to their work.. This forum is definitely skewed. I bet if you spoke to people on the street you'd get a vastly different response.

Or it could be because you're on a forum of people with a fairly good grasp of the budgetary issues facing the TTC. Right now the Commission has a backlog of billions of dollars for State of Good Repair initiative, billions in unfunded capital spending and for the 2016 budget they're requesting tens of million in funding to maintain service quality. Of course, when this request is denied, the TTC will be forced to raise fares (which, IIRC, are already the highest in the GTA), yet again to keep the system functional. There isn't anything left in the budget for losses due to fare integration.

Now fare integration as you and doady have discussed is a wonderful thing, but if you want it to happen, you'd better start pounding at the doors of your MPPs and Councillors to demand more funding for TTC operations (the TTC is one of the least funded public transit system in the world, by the way). The TTC is cash strapped already. Hell would sooner freeze over before they eat the costs of fare integration without supplementary funding.

 

[BMO]

Or it could be because you're on a forum of people with a fairly good grasp of the budgetary issues facing the TTC. Right now the Commission has a backlog of billions of dollars for State of Good Repair initiative, billions in unfunded capital spending and for the 2016 budget they're requesting tens of million in funding to maintain service quality. Of course, when this request is denied, the TTC will be forced to raise fairs (which, IIRC, are already the highest in the GTA), yet again to keep the system functional. There isn't anything left in the budget for losses due to fare integration.

Now fare integration as you and doady have discussed is a wonderful thing, but if you want it to happen, you'd better start pounding at the doors of your MPPs and Councillors to demand more funding for TTC operations (the TTC is one of the least funded public transit system in the world, by the way). The TTC is cash strapped already. Hell would sooner freeze over before they eat the costs of fare integration without supplementary funding.

Don't worry I'm sure the Province will cover the costs for the TTC just like they did for Presto. I'm surprised everyone is so worried about TTC having to spend any of their own money. They haven't had to pay for a single substantial capital expense in decades!

 

[nfitz]

Ya I find it funny how people in Toronto and TTC think that nobody in Toronto works in the 905 and somehow all the jobs are in Toronto and only people from the 905 work in Toronto.

I don't think that's the case.

Municipal taxes are funding tax. If the home and workplace are both in Toronto, there's a contribution going to TTC from both residential and commercial property tax. If someone lives or works in 905, then that portion is missing. Money has to come from somewhere.

 

[wopchop]

Don't worry I'm sure the Province will cover the costs for the TTC just like they did for Presto. I'm surprised everyone is so worried about TTC having to spend any of their own money. They haven't had to pay for a single substantial capital expense in decades!

You can't just assume that Metrolinx or the Province will pony-up the cash, when so far, they have made no indications at all (that I'm aware of) that they will do such a thing.

The TTC is absolutely right to be concerned when the provincial agency in charge talks about fare integration but doesn't seem to have a plan to make up for the funding shortfall that will inevitably follow said integration.

As we know all ... if it isn't in writing, it isn't happening. And even then ... promises are just promises.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Ya I find it funny how people in Toronto and TTC think that nobody in Toronto works in the 905 and somehow all the jobs are in Toronto and only people from the 905 work in Toronto. Do they know how many people in Toronto work in the 905 regions and would benefit from fare integration where they would pay cheaper instead of having to pay double fare to cross Steeles. Most people who work factory jobs in the GTA for instance need to travel to 905 region to work because that's where most of the jobs are. Not everyone is commuting into Toronto, there are many people who work outside of Toronto and many who depend on public transportation to get to their jobs. Toronto and the people in it have an insular way of thinking which is hindering much progress in this region.

This isn't solely a Toronto/TTC issue. The surrounding 905 agencies will also lose out with fare integration, and their farebox recovery is much lower than the TTC. As someone with a good job who lives in Toronto, but commutes to 'sauga for work, I could stand to benefit from fare integration, but I get why there is a double. It's a good source of revenue for the agencies.

As for Miway picking up passengers in Toronto... No. The ride is long enough as it is.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I don't think that's the case.

Municipal taxes are funding tax. If the home and workplace are both in Toronto, there's a contribution going to TTC from both residential and commercial property tax. If someone lives or works in 905, then that portion is missing. Money has to come from somewhere.

Then Toronto can always raise its taxes to 905 levels and subsidize the TTC properly. The one-of-a-kind low subsidy TTC receives is a council choice (yes, post the Harris-era cutting of the provincial subsidy), as is the choice not to use the City of Toronto Act taxing powers, as is the decision to keep taxes at or below the rate of inflation.

Don't get me wrong, I think they should be getting a provincial subsidy and I think it's imperative that a new system is fair to them as the system that disproportionately carries most riders, but it seems like people are really concerned about how this will negatively affect TTC as an organization and less concerned about how it will postively affect the riders who use it. The TTC's problem is it doesn't see riders as customers and if someone uses TTC every day, but starts/ends their trip outside 416, that's their own problem to deal with. If I go shop at the Gap at the Eaton Centre, they don't tell me I should really be shopping at the store closer to my house, but that's how TTC thinks of these problems.

IMHO, transit should somehow be separated from the property tax bill (or at least supplemented) and replaced with a regional tax that funds the system in an equitable manner. A few changes to the Metrolinx act by a safe, majority government should do the trick. No one's goal is to bankrupt TTC; the goal is to make it easier for people to get from A to B but that's barely in the Top 10 of the TTC's concerns, far as I can tell. (As you note: state of good repair, accessibility and multiple other things are at the top of their list instead.)

Surely, we're not reinventing the wheel here. There must be best practices to absorb from other regions about how to properly fund a multitude of transit systems. We're just too stuck in the antiquated way of how we've been doing things and TTC is too cash-strapped to be anything other than intransigent on these issues. At least Metrolinx is moving the ball forward.

 

[Adjei]

Then Toronto can always raise its taxes to 905 levels and subsidize the TTC properly. The one-of-a-kind low subsidy TTC receives is a council choice (yes, post the Harris-era cutting of the provincial subsidy), as is the choice not to use the City of Toronto Act taxing powers, as is the decision to keep taxes at or below the rate of inflation.

Don't get me wrong, I think they should be getting a provincial subsidy and I think it's imperative that a new system is fair to them as the system that disproportionately carries most riders, but it seems like people are really concerned about how this will negatively affect TTC as an organization and less concerned about how it will postively affect the riders who use it. The TTC's problem is it doesn't see riders as customers and if someone uses TTC every day, but starts/ends their trip outside 416, that's their own problem to deal with. If I go shop at the Gap at the Eaton Centre, they don't tell me I should really be shopping at the store closer to my house, but that's how TTC thinks of these problems.

IMHO, transit should somehow be separated from the property tax bill (or at least supplemented) and replaced with a regional tax that funds the system in an equitable manner. A few changes to the Metrolinx act by a safe, majority government should do the trick. No one's goal is to bankrupt TTC; the goal is to make it easier for people to get from A to B but that's barely in the Top 10 of the TTC's concerns, far as I can tell. (As you note: state of good repair, accessibility and multiple other things are at the top of their list instead.)

Surely, we're not reinventing the wheel here. There must be best practices to absorb from other regions about how to properly fund a multitude of transit systems. We're just too stuck in the antiquated way of how we've been doing things and TTC is too cash-strapped to be anything other than intransigent on these issues. At least Metrolinx is moving the ball forward.

Well said. You have made many great points in your post. I think one of the main problems in this region is that there is too much infighting going on. Too much competitions from different municipalities. You see this most from Toronto and its relationship with the other municipalities. Instead of taking the lead as the biggest city and also biggest transit service, Toronto and the TTC often look to divide the region and complicate things even more. Look at what the TTC wanted to do with Presto, when the whole region would be using Presto they would be using a different system, what sense does that make? If the province hadn't come in and forced their hands, they would probably still be looking. Even if the they were probably subsidized they would still look for ways to make things difficult, that's the level of thinking going on.

Look at how much animosity there is towards the Spadina extension even though most of it is in Toronto but because it extends into York Region, somehow it's the end of the world. We all saw how Toronto decided to prioritize the DRL when they saw the province was serious about building the Yonge extension, before that nobody in the city was talking about it. It wasn't even something officially recognized at the city. Look at how people on these boards suggest that Toronto charge 905 drivers for coming into the city as if people in Toronto don't work in the 905. The hate for people living in the suburbs as if most even have a choice. Some people choose to live there because it's cheaper to live and also it's closer to their work. Not everybody can live in downtown and commute to their job in Brampton.

The bigger problem is that a public service like the TTC like I highlighted in your post should be concerned with helping their customers move from point A to B. It's ridiculous that someone living at Keele and Finch has to pay 6 dollars to go to Highway 7 and Keele while someone living in Rexdale can go all the way to Malvern on a 3 dollar fair. You would think TTC would be looking for ways to help out their customers which should be their job but as usual they are a roadblock on the way to progress. What needs to be debated is how to properly integrate the fares to make it easier for customers to travel across the region like is done in other places and not this nonsense about it can't be done that we usually get from the TTC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You can't just assume that Metrolinx or the Province will pony-up the cash, when so far, they have made no indications at all (that I'm aware of) that they will do such a thing.

The TTC is absolutely right to be concerned when the provincial agency in charge talks about fare integration but doesn't seem to have a plan to make up for the funding shortfall that will inevitably follow said integration.

Don't expect any funding for fare integration from Metrolinx. Considering the annual funding that Metrolinx receives, I see no way for them to independently raise the money needed to fund fare integration. They'll need to go to Queen's Park for the money.

 

[BMO]

Don't expect any funding for fare integration from Metrolinx. Considering the annual funding that Metrolinx receives, I see no way for them to independently raise the money needed to fund fare integration. They'll need to go to Queen's Park for the money.

Highway tolling I imagine will generate the income. Or any number of revenue tools that Metrolinx has had in a report for the past 2-3 years but hasn't yet created a plan to use them...I'm still hopefull