[innsertnamehere]

a 3 year old honda civic for $15,000 will probably last you about 10 years with maybe $5k maximum in maintenance provided you do your own oil changes. $20k capital, or about $170 a month. $150 insurance, $50-$100 in gas depending on driving habits. Total: $370/month.

Of course experience varies. In my situation, if I wanted to purchase the car above and drive it to work daily, It would cost me far, far more. $250 insurance as I am a male in my mid 20's (clean record), $160 parking at my apartment, $140 parking at my office building (I could cheat and buy weekly on street visitor parking permits for around $110 a month). Total cost: $770/month. So instead I bike to work and occasionally take the streetcar on a rainy day. Cost: around $12 a month.

 

[wopchop]

In my experience, the cost of driving is pretty close cost wise to a commute completely on Transit (Oakville Transit, GO Transit & TTC), until you start to factor in downtown parking costs. If that cost is somehow paid for you, then it really changes the situation significantly, as this can easily add $300+ / month. Also, for many people, they own and operate a car anyway for activities other than commuting. From that perspective, the insurance and capital costs of the car would be considered sunk costs, which pushes the choice in favour of driving for many.

For myself, assuming 40 one-way trips a month; Oakville Transit ($30 / month due to Co-Fare), GO Transit from Oakville to Union ($282.25 / month) + TTC Metropass ($120) = $432.50 / month or $5,502 a year.

For a car, that's about 19,000 km a year. If we use the Honda civic example above, it is getting about 7L per 100KM (average), so approx 1400 litres / year or $1,400 - $1,800 (assuming gas prices to be $1/L to $1.25/L). Let's call it $150 a month. Plus $170 for capital and $150 for insurance (mine is lower, but I will follow the example). That's a total of $470 a month.

However, this new TTC / GO-Transit fare agreement means that the monthly transit cost above changes significantly. It would drop to $372.5 / month.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Are GO Transit and GO RER luxuries that lower income people will ever be able to afford? Economies of scale are likely to make RER more affordable, but even then I expect the service to be inaccessible to a huge amount of Torontonians.

With regards to fare integration, people often talk of a small surcharge to use RER services. A relatively small surcharge of $1.50 per trip, adds up to $720 annually, assuming 40 one-way trips per month. That's a huge chunk of money, when you consider that the Toronto is the poorest city in the GTHA, and that our median individual income in Toronto is just $30,000. $720 is 2.5% of the annual income. Lower income people can't afford to pay that to shave 5 to 15 minutes off their commutes.

Compounding the issue is our abject failure to substantially increase transit oriented development around RER stations in the outer suburbs, and to increase the percentage of commuters that are using transit go get to these stations. With 60% of GO Transit commuters parking their car at stations, and only 10% arriving via public transit, GO Transit has become North America's largest parking provider, with plans to continue to expand their parking facilities. GO Transit's typical commuter can afford both a car and GO's expensive fares. The service largely exists to heavily subsidize these relatively wealthy commuters, and their spawning communities, and RER will not be much better in this regard, unless we can increase transit oriented development, increase the percentage of people arriving to RER by transit and make the service accessible to lower income individuals.

Meanwhile we have politicians like John Tory advocating replacing existing RT services in one of Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods, and replacing it with more expensive RER services, which many of the existing commuters will never be able to afford.

 

[amnesiajune]

There's absolutely no way to operate more frequent Go Train service unless it's heavily used by people living within Toronto, which will only happen if the train services are a part of the TTC network. Neither Metrolinx nor the provincial government want to run a network of white elephants, so they'll find some way to make it a part of the TTC fare system.

 

[OneCity]

Are GO Transit and GO RER luxuries that lower income people will ever be able to afford? Economies of scale are likely to make RER more affordable, but even then I expect the service to be inaccessible to a huge amount of Torontonians.

With regards to fare integration, people often talk of a small surcharge to use RER services. A relatively small surcharge of $1.50 per trip, adds up to $720 annually, assuming 40 one-way trips per month. That's a huge chunk of money, when you consider that the Toronto is the poorest city in the GTHA, and that our median individual income in Toronto is just $30,000. $720 is 2.5% of the annual income. Lower income people can't afford to pay that to shave 5 to 15 minutes off their commutes.

Compounding the issue is our abject failure to substantially increase transit oriented development around RER stations in the outer suburbs, and to increase the percentage of commuters that are using transit go get to these stations. With 60% of GO Transit commuters parking their car at stations, and only 10% arriving via public transit, GO Transit has become North America's largest parking provider, with plans to continue to expand their parking facilities. GO Transit's typical commuter can afford both a car and GO's expensive fares. The service largely exists to heavily subsidize these relatively wealthy commuters, and their spawning communities, and RER will not be much better in this regard, unless we can increase transit oriented development, increase the percentage of people arriving to RER by transit and make the service accessible to lower income individuals.

Meanwhile we have politicians like John Tory advocating replacing existing RT services in one of Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods, and replacing it with more expensive RER services, which many of the existing commuters will never be able to afford.

If they add a subway stop at Lawrence (which Tory voted for) well have both GO RER and TTC options which make sense for a hybrid lifestyle and hybrid income area. And redundancy for both during delays.

Inevitably it will be up to the City and Province to provide presto accesibity means for those in need when the time comes. And surely they will.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There's absolutely no way to operate more frequent Go Train service unless it's heavily used by people living within Toronto, which will only happen if the train services are a part of the TTC network. Neither Metrolinx nor the provincial government want to run a network of white elephants, so they'll find some way to make it a part of the TTC fare system.

Is that what has been said in the reports regarding RER ridership? That fare integration was required to make RER viable? I’m not too familiar with the RER ridership projections, but I don’t recall fare integration ever being cited as a prerequisite for successful RER

 

[amnesiajune]

Is that what has been said in the reports regarding RWE ridership? That fare integration was required to make RER viable?

Common sense doesn't need a government report. If you charged people any extra amount - even just a dollar - to take the subway, you can bet that tons more people would start to use nearby bus and streetcar routes instead. RER isn't any different - hardly anyone will use it within Toronto if they have to pay more. The current fare system is useless for RER because it's built around the assumption that GO is competing with $10-20 parking, which is true at their main existing hubs (Pearson Airport, York University, Downtown Toronto, NYCC, etc.) but not on the new trips (weekends & core-to-suburb commutes) that they want to service.

 

[steveintoronto]

If you charged people any extra amount - even just a dollar - to take the subway, you can bet that tons more people would start to use nearby bus and streetcar routes instead. RER isn't any different - hardly anyone will use it within Toronto if they have to pay more.

UPX experience states the opposite. The reason it's now packed at rush-hour *even with present GO fares* is because people are voting with their feet.

 

[amnesiajune]

UPX experience states the opposite. The reason it's now packed at rush-hour *even with present GO fares* is because people are voting with their feet.

Most of the people who pack that train are going to the airport, and hardly any of the rest are transferring to/from the TTC. Go Transit manages to get lots of passengers at their existing stations in Toronto, but none of them are using it as one of multiple transit routes - they walk, bike or drive to the train station, then walk from the train to their final destination.

If RER is going to be sustainable, it needs to be a part of a much larger transit network like the city's subways are, and it can't be that if they expect people using the rest of that transit network to pay some extra fare for the train that they wouldn't pay on the existing buses, streetcars and subways.

 

[steveintoronto]

Most of the people who pack that train are going to the airport

I see you haven't been in the line-ups at Union in the evening rush-hour, or at Bloor or Weston in the morning ones. At Union, evening rush-hour, two-lines are formed: One for Pearson ticket-holders, who board first, and the overwhelmingly larger one for GO fare customers to Bloor and Weston. Sometimes many have to wait for the next train. Happened to me a couple of times, and I avoid rush-hour when I travel.

hardly any of the rest are transferring to/from the TTC

That's exactly the point. A good number are travelling through from other GO lines.

If RER is going to be sustainable, it needs to be a part of a much larger transit network like the city's subways are

On this we agree, which is exactly why I project the Relief Line being RER mostly in tunnel as a supplement/replacement for the Richmond Hill line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

UPX experience states the opposite. The reason it's now packed at rush-hour *even with present GO fares* is because people are voting with their feet.

I see you haven't been in the line-ups at Union in the evening rush-hour, or at Bloor or Weston in the morning ones. At Union, evening rush-hour, two-lines are formed: One for Pearson ticket-holders, who board first, and the overwhelmingly larger one for GO fare customers to Bloor and Weston. Sometimes many have to wait for the next train. Happened to me a couple of times, and I avoid rush-hour when I travel.

It's easy to fill a small glass with a small amount of water. The UPX is a very low capacity service (lower than your run of the mill bus line), so the fact that there are people lining up for trains doesn't in itself indicate that there's a lot of demand for this service on this corridor with the fares currently in place. Of course, this isn't to say there wouldn't be heavy demand with a different fare structure.

 

[steveintoronto]

It's easy to fill a small glass with a small amount of water. The UPX is a very low capacity service (lower than your run of the mill bus line), so the fact that there are people lining up for trains doesn't in itself indicate that there's a lot of demand for this service on this corridor with the fares currently in place. Of course, this isn't to say there wouldn't be heavy demand with a different fare structure.

That is irrelevant to the claim:

Most of the people who pack that train are going to the airport

Even averaged over the day, GO fare riders (read: much reduced price to UPX previous fares) are a substantial part of the ridership. At rush hour, they are the predominant part, by far, which is why Pearson passengers are ushered on first. They wouldn't get a seat otherwise.

 

[amnesiajune]

Even averaged over the day, GO fare riders (read: much reduced price to UPX previous fares) are a substantial part of the ridership. At rush hour, they are the predominant part, by far, which is why Pearson passengers are ushered on first. They wouldn't get a seat otherwise.

Even in the three-car trains during rush hour, pretty much every seat is full all the way to Pearson. Sometimes people going to the airport are left standing. And unlike you, I'm not going to make baseless assumptions about whether or not you've taken UPX.

That's exactly the point. A good number are travelling through from other GO lines.

You can't transfer between UPX and other GO lines. It gets charged as two separate trips. And even if you were able to, you wouldn't have anywhere useful to transfer to. Hardly anyone is commuting to the Dundas West or Weston & Lawrence stations.

 

[APTA-2048]

You can't transfer between UPX and other GO lines. It gets charged as two separate trips. And even if you were able to, you wouldn't have anywhere useful to transfer to. Hardly anyone is commuting to the Dundas West or Weston & Lawrence stations.

You can if you're going to Bloor or Weston. I've journeyed to High Park many times via GO and UP from Rouge Hill.

 

[steveintoronto]

Even in the three-car trains during rush hour, pretty much every seat is full all the way to Pearson. Sometimes people going to the airport are left standing. And unlike you, I'm not going to make baseless assumptions about whether or not you've taken UPX.

Since I live four minutes walk away, I use it all the time, and I've transferred to GO at Union many times, and many times back. Sometimes I don't even bother to tap-off and tap-on again at Union, as the GO Presto stalk at UPX Union is buggy sometimes. Presto staff advise me not to tap-off, tap-on, albeit it throws them sometimes when checking the Presto card on-board the UPX.

But hey, it's not just me, it's lots of folks who do it.

Derek Flack
Posted on March 31, 2016

[...]
At the end of the work day, I was curious what the UP Express is like at rush hour, so I took it back to Bloor for another $5.30. I live near Bloor and Lansdowne, so it's only a short walk from the station.

The ease of travel and speed of the train was about the same, though I did end up waiting for about seven minutes for it to arrive at Union. That wasn't quite enough time to enjoy all that the lounge has to offer, but it's still a nice place to wait.

By the time we pushed off, the train's seats were full. Based on the lack of luggage the majority of passengers were carrying, I'd say that only a few of the riders were heading for a flight.

My total trip time home was about 35 minutes (given the extra wait for the train and walking distance). That's not too bad, but it's certainly longer than the TTC ride to and from my office. In other words, you pay a double premium (time and money) for use of the UP Express unless you live within five minutes of the stations on both ends.

So, what's the verdict? With its recently reduced fare, the UP Express is a viable transit option for commuters who live and work relatively close to a station, but unless there's a major delay, there's almost no reason to get off the subway to use the service.

If anyone would particularly benefit from the UPX as a commuter, it's those who live near Weston Station, as the price for a two-station trip is only marginally more than from one.[...]

http://www.blogto.com/city/2016/03/what_its_like_to_commute_on_the_up_express/

You can't transfer between UPX and other GO lines. It gets charged as two separate trips. And even if you were able to, you wouldn't have anywhere useful to transfer to. Hardly anyone is commuting to the Dundas West or Weston & Lawrence stations.

I suggest you call up GO Transit information. You can not only transfer to all the trains at Union as one through-fare, you can to all the GO buses too, and vice versa. The problem comes in that unless you transfer to a K/W train northbound, there are no GO buses to transfer to, and GO fare is not recognized coming through the airport station, a real shortcoming that is going to have to be addressed.

You tap on the GO Presto machines, not the UPX ones, but that is clearly labelled anyway. Clear for most anyway...

From the UPX website:

If you are headed to or coming back from Pearson airport you tap on the silver coloured UP Express devices. If you are going anywhere else on GO or UP you tap on either the silver coloured or green coloured devices.

Please note that if you tap on a GO fare payment device, you can travel on either GO or UP (provided that you are not going to the airport). If you tap on an UP fare payment device, you may only travel on UP Express.

https://www.upexpress.com/CustomerSupport/Faq