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lenaitch said:
The stated reason why Southwest doesn't fly to Canada is their booking system isn't set up to handle foreign currency. I would think if they felt there was enough business in it they would modify their system. Jetblue only flies into Vancouver. With our airport fees running from 35%-75% higher than the US according to Air Canada, operating a discount airline here is a bigger challenge and I would image any US discount carrier would want to see major traffic to make it worth while.
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Southwest flies to other countries like Mexico, Jamaica, Cuba.
 
lenaitch said:
Yet still the US discount carriers don't come. Maybe Buffalo or Niagara Falls NY is close enough for them.
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Right now enough Canadians are going to Detroit and Buffalo for cheap flights, the discount airlines don't need to come to Canada. If it weren't for the Canadians getting cheap flights, half the hotels and restaurants would close in Buffalo lol

My cousin is flying her family out of Buffalo for around 1200 bucks to San Fran. Air Canada wanted over 3 thousand for the same dates. Even with the exchange rate, they are still saving a lot of money.

I have flown out of Buffalo, ( within in the US) i didn't save any money, but i got better flight times. Air Canada lay over times in the US can be ridiculous. I can fly to France faster.
 
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gabe said:
My cousin is flying her family out of Buffalo for around 1200 bucks to San Fran. Air Canada wanted over 3 thousand for the same dates. Even with the exchange rate, they are still saving a lot of money.
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I recently flew to SFO from Toronto through Porter, which added San Francisco and LA in January. I paid about $400 (all fees included cost) each way for their premium economy seats (includes seat selection, one checked bag, in-flight meal, and beer/wine,) and it was a booking only three weeks before the flight date. I recall the regular seats were going for only $200/each for the trip (only one carry on bag included). The flight was almost 100% full on the way there on a Friday, though it was only 10% full coming back on a Tuesday. I think they do one flight each way every day.

Maybe they are trying to fill in that niche the US carriers aren't. It would be interesting to know if they have ever considered flights out of Hamilton. Seems like it would be an easy alternative or additional option as they are only using the narrow-body jets to fly to California (2x2 seating configuration) so there's no complicated extra runway room or custom jetways required though I' sure there's a high fixed cost to start such a service to create the check-in space and boarding area, etc.
 
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Jonny5 said:
I recently flew to SFO from Toronto through Porter, which added San Francisco and LA in January. I paid about $400 (all fees included cost) each way for their premium economy seats (includes seat selection, one checked bag, in-flight meal, and beer/wine,) and it was a booking only three weeks before the flight date. I recall the regular seats were going for only $200/each for the trip (only one carry on bag included). The flight was almost 100% full on the way there on a Friday, though it was only 10% full coming back on a Tuesday. I think they do one flight each way every day.

Maybe they are trying to fill in that niche the US carriers aren't. It would be interesting to know if they have ever considered flights out of Hamilton. Seems like it would be an easy alternative or additional option as they are only using the narrow-body jets to fly to California (2x2 seating configuration) so there's no complicated extra runway room or custom jetways required though I' sure there's a high fixed cost to start such a service to create the check-in space and boarding area, etc.
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That's good to know! Canada is too expensive to travel in. I'm going to Vancouver in June, my nephew is getting married. Five nights in a cheap three star hotel downtown Vancouver is costing me $3500!
 
Jonny5 said:
I recently flew to SFO from Toronto through Porter, which added San Francisco and LA in January. I paid about $400 (all fees included cost) each way for their premium economy seats (includes seat selection, one checked bag, in-flight meal, and beer/wine,) and it was a booking only three weeks before the flight date. I recall the regular seats were going for only $200/each for the trip (only one carry on bag included). The flight was almost 100% full on the way there on a Friday, though it was only 10% full coming back on a Tuesday. I think they do one flight each way every day.

Maybe they are trying to fill in that niche the US carriers aren't. It would be interesting to know if they have ever considered flights out of Hamilton. Seems like it would be an easy alternative or additional option as they are only using the narrow-body jets to fly to California (2x2 seating configuration) so there's no complicated extra runway room or custom jetways required though I' sure there's a high fixed cost to start such a service to create the check-in space and boarding area, etc.
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I think it's unlikely Porter would ever fly out of Hamilton. I never thought I'd see the day that Porter would fly out of Pearson for that matter but I don't see them flying out of Hamilton. Porter's target market is business travel and slightly better than Air Canada leisure traveler. That's not to say there isn't that kind of market in Hamilton, but if they were to add a third hub in the GTA it would probably be Waterloo airport where they can target the IT business travelers there.

But three hubs out of the GTA would be a stretch for any airline, the additional costs would be huge.
 
Jonah Prousky has covered the issue of why air travel is so expensive in Canada in the media in some interesting pieces. It's apparently not a coincidence or even a factor of the country's size and density. One issue is the "user pays" model for running airports in Canada where travellers are expected to pay the operational costs of airport versus the government covering airport costs in the way it pays for roads.

The other issue is much more obscure but significant. Airlines are very capital-intensive businesses. Canada has apparently regulated airlines such that a significant portion of the capital for airlines operating within Canada has to come from Canadian sources. That makes it difficult for foreign investors to cover the costs of setting up and operating airlines in Canada.

My take is that the country's business community only has the appetite and capital to robustly invest in a small number of national airlines and only one or two international carriers. Beyond that, you're left with airlines operating on shaky capital and prone to going out of business. You essentially need foreign capital to make the Canadian market more price competitive, which will require changes to the regulations.
 
junctionist said:
Jonah Prousky has covered the issue of why air travel is so expensive in Canada in the media in some interesting pieces. It's apparently not a coincidence or even a factor of the country's size and density. One issue is the "user pays" model for running airports in Canada where travellers are expected to pay the operational costs of airport versus the government covering airport costs in the way it pays for roads.

The other issue is much more obscure but significant. Airlines are very capital-intensive businesses. Canada has apparently regulated airlines such that a significant portion of the capital for airlines operating within Canada has to come from Canadian sources. That makes it difficult for foreign investors to cover the costs of setting up and operating airlines in Canada.

My take is that the country's business community only has the appetite and capital to robustly invest in a small number of national airlines and only one or two international carriers. Beyond that, you're left with airlines operating on shaky capital and prone to going out of business. You essentially need foreign capital to make the Canadian market more price competitive, which will require changes to the regulations.
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Air travel in Canada honestly isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Looking at Porter, you can book a premium economy flight to Vancouver from Toronto for like $500 these days, economy for $300 (round trip!). 8-10 years ago $500 would get you a budget airline ticket, yet alone premium economy.

Competition in the Canadian Airline industry is also far better than the past - We have three major players on the national level at this point (Air Canada, Porter, West Jet), especially for the Toronto Market, plus various budget airliners jockeying for position below them.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Air travel in Canada honestly isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Looking at Porter, you can book a premium economy flight to Vancouver from Toronto for like $500 these days, economy for $300 (round trip!). 8-10 years ago $500 would get you a budget airline ticket, yet alone premium economy.

Competition in the Canadian Airline industry is also far better than the past - We have three major players on the national level at this point (Air Canada, Porter, West Jet), especially for the Toronto Market, plus various budget airliners jockeying for position below them.
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Lynx just went out of business. Flair has also struggled financially despite using a similar model that has worked in the US and EU. Air Canada has little domestic competition for flying overseas.
 
junctionist said:
Jonah Prousky has covered the issue of why air travel is so expensive in Canada in the media in some interesting pieces. It's apparently not a coincidence or even a factor of the country's size and density. One issue is the "user pays" model for running airports in Canada where travellers are expected to pay the operational costs of airport versus the government covering airport costs in the way it pays for roads.

The other issue is much more obscure but significant. Airlines are very capital-intensive businesses. Canada has apparently regulated airlines such that a significant portion of the capital for airlines operating within Canada has to come from Canadian sources. That makes it difficult for foreign investors to cover the costs of setting up and operating airlines in Canada.

My take is that the country's business community only has the appetite and capital to robustly invest in a small number of national airlines and only one or two international carriers. Beyond that, you're left with airlines operating on shaky capital and prone to going out of business. You essentially need foreign capital to make the Canadian market more price competitive, which will require changes to the regulations.
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Foreign investment is a double edged sword. Sure, allowing for foreign investment would open up the amount of capital available to an airline. However what's to stop, KLM group for example, from opening up a subsidiary airline in the Canadian market thus bypassing completely having to invest in a "Canadian" business. How do you encourage foreign investment while also maintaining some semblance of being a "Canadian" company?
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
Foreign investment is a double edged sword. Sure, allowing for foreign investment would open up the amount of capital available to an airline. However what's to stop, KLM group for example, from opening up a subsidiary airline in the Canadian market thus bypassing completely having to invest in a "Canadian" business. How do you encourage foreign investment while also maintaining some semblance of being a "Canadian" company?
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What's the alternative, though? Travel around the country should be as affordable as possible to encourage people to live in and invest in cities other than the big 3. People are more likely to move to a different city if they can afford to travel to visit friends and family in their hometown. Telecommunications is also a field that's too protected by government regulations, resulting in unreasonably high prices.
 
gabe said:
That's good to know! Canada is too expensive to travel in. I'm going to Vancouver in June, my nephew is getting married. Five nights in a cheap three star hotel downtown Vancouver is costing me $3500!
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The hotel costs in Canada have sky rocketed since Covid. I don’t get why! A normal standard hotel room in a city used to be $200-300 tops. Now it’s almost double that. Unless one is on a corporate rate the nightly stay is upwards of $300-500/ night. Crazy. If it’s in peak day/season easily can be double that.
 
junctionist said:
What's the alternative, though? Travel around the country should be as affordable as possible to encourage people to live in and invest in cities other than the big 3. People are more likely to move to a different city if they can afford to travel to visit friends and family in their hometown. Telecommunications is also a field that's too protected by government regulations, resulting in unreasonably high prices.
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Chicken vs. egg. Low and uneven population distribution and density makes it expensive to service. Even if foreign ownership rules were relaxed, I doubt it would make much difference outside of the urban nodes and government subsidies aren't going to happen. I doubt cheaper travel 'back home' would have a significant impact on residency.

As for foreign ownership, particularly in key infrastructure and services, this country has a poor track record of filtering out those who might challenge our strategic interests.
 
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