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Holy hell. I think the point is just that Harper cut the GST by 2 points as part of his plan to gain voter support but did so without any clue as to how the government would replace that revenue. That's bad policy. Can you refute that?

Other miscellaneous points:

-I suppose Chretien & Martin dragged us into a war with the middle east, but that was on the back of 9/11 at the time when the entire world was jumping to support the U.S. The war had popular support and, most relevant to this conversation, support from Harper and the Conservative party. Harper wanted us to go to Iraq, remember. (So did Ignatieff, which is part of why he mostly sucks.)

-European countries have high taxes but also very high standards of living. They're hardly socialist hellholes clamouring for freedom. What works for them may not work the same for us, but the reverse is true too. I'd certainly rather be a poor Swede than a poor American.

-You talk about being a centrist but then make an incredible claim that "the Harper administration may be the closest thing to a true democratic leadership this country will have seen in a long time"? You know that the Chrestien/Martin Liberals essentially ran a very fiscally conservative government for over a decade, setting paying down the debt and keeping income taxes low as top priorities?
 
H-I suppose Chretien & Martin dragged us into a war with the middle east
To be fair, apart from the JTF-2 deployment (which doesn't seem to have any casulties after almost 10 years) Chretien only dragged us to a peace keeping role around Kabul. It was Martin that turned this into an operational role in Kandahar ... though that didn't begin until about the time Harper became PM ... and Harper was the one who extended it after it was clear how serious the casualties would be.

Harper wanted us to go to Iraq, remember. (So did Ignatieff, which is part of why he mostly sucks.)
Ignatieff is pretty right-wing for a Liberal. When you start looking at his core group of people ... well look at Rossi for example ... now that he's left Ignatieff and running for Mayor of Toronto his polices look very right wing ... not even Liberal. I'm not sure there is much difference between Ignatieff and some of the more moderate PC leaders such as Clark or Charest.
 
Gee, I guess France had no choice but to say no to them, then.

It would seem that the opposition has been out manouvered on this budget issue as Mr. Harper beats them to the punch. The daily news is flooded with these announcements as they come daily in bits and pieces. Also the various ministers are also making announcements of the impact on thier ministries and thus the CPC is looking more and more in control all the time. Canadians seek strength from the government and Harper is letting his ministers take some of the glory, or heat, which ever way you want to look at it. We can be reasonably sure that even if the Liberals secretly wrote the budget themselves (and by appearances it would seem they did) they would still scream bloody murder about it and insist that the government is leading us to hell in a hand cart. Gamesmanship perhaps, but if Harper displays a brutal forehand, Iggy's response is with a wicked backhand - let the games begin.

Do many Torontonians even realize who the true conservative is amongst the two? Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who was one of the architects of Green Carbon tax? Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who with his party were are advocating for a 30 Billion Dollar stimulus package? And a 5 Billion Dollar Kelowna Accord Package? Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who not too long ago was advocating for tax cuts? Is this this the same Mr. Ignatieff who told Canadians, and with a straight face that closing down Guantanamo was a mistake? Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who told a NY Times reporter that he favoured torture assassination and the indefinite detention of those suspected of terrorism activities in guess where folks? Yup, he said it and he believed then and now. Oh Iggy! You're a liberal? In his dreams maybe.

I am a centrist, but I'm also a realist (partly why I quoted Machiavelli), one who is not as readily swayed by ideological smoke and mirror politicking. Not that I trust either party or leader for that matter but at what point do we collectively agree that all of them are playing games. They all justify their game as the game to save Canada and if you really want to impress me, bring a Canadian solution to the table and not Obama ver2.0. Mr. Ignatieff, like all politicians, plays games. What he should be doing is telling the truth. He has not ran a business and does not realize that entrepreneurs, not government, will get us out of this recession. Our economy needs to change and what will look like is yet to be determined. People need to research possible new careers and then retrain, keeping in mind that they will probably have to retrain again to meet the needs of the economy.
 
France WENT to Afghanistan. What are you talking about? They still have troops in Afghanistan, even.

I don't understand the rest of your post, really. "Canadians seek strength from the government" makes you sound look a fascist. The Liberals didn't write the current budget - the Conservatives did. Ignatieff does not have a wicked backhand as much as he has been a terribly ineffective and waffling leader. Harper is a much much better politician.

That said, some responses on the Ignatieff front:

Do many Torontonians even realize who the true conservative is amongst the two?

Yes. It is Stephen Harper.

But wait, weren't you just making the claim that Harper and the CPC were Canada's last line of defence against the tyranny of socialism? But Ignatieff is more conservative than Harper? How do you make your mind work this way?

Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who was one of the architects of Green Carbon tax?

No. Ignatieff never really supported Dion's Green Shift plan and scrapped it immediately when he became leader. His support for it when campaigning was always soft. (It was still the best idea the Liberals ever had, though.)

Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who with his party were are advocating for a 30 Billion Dollar stimulus package?

They advocated for stimulus funding, yes. So did every Western government after the economic meltdown in the fall of 2008. This is not a bad thing.

And a 5 Billion Dollar Kelowna Accord Package?

The Kelowana Accord meetings were in 2005, before Ignatieff was even elected. That said, 5 billion dollars over 10 years that would come from a variety of sources to help some the many issues facing our country's native population does not sound frivolous to me. But maybe it does to you.

Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who not too long ago was advocating for tax cuts?

Both the Liberals and NDP continue to argue for tax cuts to low- and middle-income people. The Liberal Party of Canada has a strong record of fiscal discipline as they're largely a Centre-Right party these days.

Is this this the same Mr. Ignatieff who told Canadians, and with a straight face that closing down Guantanamo was a mistake? Is this the same Mr. Ignatieff who told a NY Times reporter that he favoured torture assassination and the indefinite detention of those suspected of terrorism activities in guess where folks? Yup, he said it and he believed then and now. Oh Iggy! You're a liberal? In his dreams maybe.

Well, yeah, and that's why I don't like him much. I can dislike him but also dislike Harper more.

I don't really know what to say because I keep posting a couple of points and you respond with four paragraphs about something else entirely, so I'll just restate the question I asked above:

Holy hell. I think the point is just that Harper cut the GST by 2 points as part of his plan to gain voter support but did so without any clue as to how the government would replace that revenue. That's bad policy. Can you refute that?
 
“The one who adapts his policy to the times prospers, and likewise that the one whose policy clashes with the demands of the times does not.”
- realist political thinker and scholar, Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli.

You know, for a bunch of "centrists", you all appear to be extremely riled up by the notion that our Prime Minister (yes YOUR'S too) may actually be doing a good job on the economy which further discredits the need or rationale to have the Conservatives abdicated. I'm also curious to know since when "bullshit" was considered appropriate language to be used in the forum in response to other poster's comments which I'm certain violates UT's policies of conduct. Perhaps, that proves that there is a liberal bias, at least on this message board such that you cannot discuss the issues nor possibly consider the other side of the debate without having to resort to verbal attacks.

Your complete distortion of truth and love for transparent spin, in the face of your accusations of "bias", make you a hypocrite of massive proportions.

If you were a Conservative who begrudgingly supported Harper as a lesser of evils, I would definitely respect your voice here. But you're not. In fact, I suspect you are involved in politics, more specifically, the CPC. That, or you were brainwashed.... Either way, you have an agenda, and would do the board a favour if you stopped posting altogether. You're like an encyclopedia of bad talking points and not even close to being a centrist. Leave.




I will not try to convince anyone that the Liberals are the definite answer (I'm not a fan of Iggy), but I will cut through any bullshit about the Conservatives being the definite answer. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. :eek:

Holy hell. I think the point is just that Harper cut the GST by 2 points as part of his plan to gain voter support but did so without any clue as to how the government would replace that revenue. That's bad policy. Can you refute that?

Well, Michael Ignatieff eats toddlers for sustenance and kills kittens as a hobby!
 
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How is anything I've said here remotely transparent spin? Everything I've said here is the truth or at least how I've interpreted it. No, I'm not a politician, I did vote for the Liberals in the last federal elections but now I'm questioning my decision. I do not consider myself a "card-carrying" Conservative-supporter at this point but I'm not anxious to witness another election anytime soon either. I had high hopes for Ignatieff at first, but now to me he's just as wishy-washy as Stephane Dion was. That's why I said Canadians prefer strong, decisive leadership at the helm, even if you don't agree with everything they decide on. And for all the fire and brimstone predictions about what would happen to the Canadian economy if we followed the Conservatives plan, things so far have turned out pretty good in comparison to most nations.

My only agenda on here is to get greater political insight as to what's so wrong with the Harper gov't and what better option there is out there. That's why I consider myself a centrist because after years of supporting the Liberals now I'm entertaining other options. I just don't know who to trust or what to believe in; and I'm just looking for answers, not one-sided ones, comprehensive full-picture analysis to inform my decision. I respect y'all opinions even if you can't bestow onto me the same courtesy as to stop retorting with "bullshit", pitchforks and torches to anything y'all consider flattering of the CPC and Harper.
 
The "detainee" issue lives on and has been delayed by appointing the retired justice to review the redacted information. The spin continues but the quest for truth also continues.......
 
Wow. I go away from the forum for a little bit and I come back not only to the Return of Socialwoe/Dentrobate Episode 10,000,000 but now he's a conbot. Brilliant.

Now that you're a Tory, I can finally tell you to stop using words when you have no idea what they mean.
 
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All of this just reminds me of the days when people would bash the Liberals for winding up with an even bigger surplus at the end of the year than they had predicted. The horror!

Here's Paul Wells of Macleans' take on the whole thing. No Liberal, he.


Peering into tomorrow, blind as a bat
by Paul Wells on Thursday, March 4, 2010 4:41pm

“Let’s be clear,” Jim Flaherty told a news conference during today’s budget lockup for journalists. “This is a tough budget.” Several journalists watching in the room next door burst out laughing.

Like its predecessors, the 2010 budget (“Leading the Way on Jobs and Growth” — the rhetorical inspiration here comes for once not from Australia, but from Paul Martin circa 1994) features a few killer charts that seek to tell the whole story. One of the big ones this year is titled “Rapid Decline In Deficits.” It begins with a rapid increase in deficits, from $5.8 billion in 2008-2009 to $53.8 billion in 2009-2010, wafting gently down to $49.2 billion in 2010-2011, then to $27.6 billion, $17.5 billion, $8.5 billion, and finally to $1.8 billion in 2014-2015. Hey, that’s a rapid decline in deficits.

It had better be. For once I packed away a couple of old budgets to keep me company in the lockup. And here’s what those deficits were projected to be, only a year ago: $1.1 billion in 2008-2009, $33.7 billion in 2009-2010, then $29.8 billion, $13 billion, $7.3 billion and $0.7 billion in 2013-2014. So: over the six years where the two forecasts overlap, Flaherty is admitting he screwed up his forecasts last year by an aggregate total of $76.8 billion.

That’s really bad.

You kind of need to watch this guy Flaherty. “We are going to eliminate the deficit,” he said, sternly, all serious-guy like. “I’m the guy who paid down $37 billion in debt in my first three years as finance minister.”

And that’s true. The figure includes $13 billion in surplus from Ralph Goodale’s last budget. Flaherty had been Canada’s finance minister for six weeks when he cashed Goodale’s check. So Flaherty is the guy who swiped one-third of his bragging rights from the Liberals.

And now, every few months, he gets into a feud with Kevin Page, the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Page says the deficit will be bigger than Flaherty projected. Flaherty puts on his little Irish-cop smirk and says, poncy little crat doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And then the deficit turns out bigger than Flaherty projected.

Every time.

It’s clockwork, like Lucy with the football, but Flaherty’s poker face never wavers. There’s something almost admirable about it. Which is handy because when it comes to the sort of thing you’d like to be able to admire a finance minister for, like, say, being dependable, he’s got nothing for you.


These kinds of outcomes are to be expected because in the delicate work of projecting economic growth, Flaherty is out here commando. The hated Liberals used to use “prudent” projections, which meant they assumed growth would be lower, by a set amount, than the average of private-sector forecasts. Then they added a “contingency” fund of, typically, $3 billion a year, which would protect program envelopes if the growth forecasts were wildly over-optimistic.

Almost every year the only surprise that resulted was substantially lower deficits or higher surpluses than expected. A high-class problem, especially in retrospect. Flaherty throws out both the belt and the suspenders. He takes the average of the private-sector forecasts, uses no contingency, gets it all badly wrong, digs the country a little further into the hole, rinses and repeats.

Anyway. Colleagues Coyne and Geddes, elsewhere in our coverage, will tell you how little credibility there is in the details of Flaherty’s deficit-elimination strategy, but beyond that micro-incredibility, I thought it’d be useful to belabour the minister’s (and by extension his boss’s) macro-incredibility. They have consistently failed to hit a barn door with their most basic forecasts.

But we were not only told, in the festival of leaks and briefings that preceded this budget, that it would be tough on the macro numbers. We were also told it would cast the eyes of the government and nation forward into a bright and shiny future: with innovation, productivity, science, technology, all that jobs-for-tomorrow stuff.

Wrong again.

In among various other bits of Kafka-meets-Orwell language (“Responsibility for conducting environmental assessments for energy projects will be delegated from the Canadian Environmental Assessment Agency to the National Energy Board…”) there is indeed a lot of talk about the Future. But the new sums allocated for science and technology — always a fairly small amount of any year’s budget — are strikingly smaller this year than in recent budget years, let alone in the heyday of the late 1990s. Budget 2010 gives the very strong impression of a national science-and-technology effort that is grinding to a halt in exhaustion and confusion.

For example. A PMO guy buttonholed me in the cafeteria lineup and asked what I thought of what the budget document calls “a new and prestigious post-doctoral fellowships program to attract top-level talent to Canada.” And indeed: the budget provides $45 million over five years to fund up to 140 grad fellowships a year.

That’s worth doing. It’s also about one-third (in any given average year) of the $87.5 million over three years the 2009 budget allocated to Canada Graduate Scholarships. They’re different programs, but you see the difference in scale.

Similarly, the motor of basic research in the country is the three granting councils, SSHRC, NSERC and the CIHR. Budget 2010 gives them $32 million a year in new funding, beginning in 2010-11. Which is great (not really; it’s very modest) until you remember that last year’s budget imposed a $43 million cut on the three councils for ’10-11. So now they’ll only have to find $11 million in cuts next year. Hooray.

There are other funding announcements in the budget, but they don’t go toward the kind of breakthrough-potential basic research the granting councils support. There’s nearly $400 million over five years to develop new RADARSAT remote sensing satellites. That’s like buying a new laptop: it replaces off-the-shelf technology from a few years ago with new off-the-shelf technology that has benefitted, automatically, like falling off a log, from Moore’s Law in the interim. Let other countries support the cutting edge of science; Flaherty will put his bets on the dull edge of technology.

Now, two big reports last year from the Council of Canadian Academies and the Industry department’s Science and Technology Innovation Council pointed out that the real drags on Canada’s productivity aren’t in Canada’s labs, which are well-funded and produce research that receives disproportionate attention from Canadian scientists’ peers around the world. No, the real drag is in the private sector, which fails to implement new ideas into the development of products and processes as a matter of routine. That’s a tougher nut to crack. The new budget demonstrates this by making big moves that won’t help.

Very nearly the largest line item in this budget is the $457 million over two years to make Canada a tariff-free zone for manufacturers. It’s an interesting idea. It’ll allow, say, a razor-blade manufacturer in Moncton to import steel and machinery tariff-free. Eliminating those tariff lines will cost $457 million over the next two years, but I’m willing to believe that cost will be covered in tax revenues from new economic activity.

But what that activity won’t be, necessarily, is innovative or extra-productive. If I want to import my materials and machinery from Slovakia or Japan to run the same lazy-ass domestic-market-obsessed innovation-blind company that dominates the Canadian business landscape, it’s not this tariff-free scheme that’ll kick me out of my rut.

The good news (he said warily) is that, four years after it was elected and two years after it released its science and technology strategy, the Harper government is getting ready to think about science and technology. Here’s the relevant language in the budget:

“To ensure that federal funding is yielding maximum benefits for Canadians, the Government, in close consultation with business leaders from all sectors and our provincial partners, will conduct a comprehensive review of all federal support for R&D to improve its contribution to innovation and to economic opportunities for business. This review will inform future decisions regarding federal support for R&D. The Government is currently developing the terms of reference for the review.”

It is never easy to get excited about a review. This budget announces a lot of reviews to not-get-excited about. It also announces reviews of the Canadian Payments System, aboriginal infrastructure, and airport security (I like to think of this as the Helena Guergis clause). Summoning what may be an excess of optimism, I note that this R&D review, with provincial and business participation, looks a little like what the presidents of Canada’s five major research universities were asking for last summer in a much-remarked interview with Maclean’s. But I note that the budget calls only for input from business, not from the research community.

To repeat: every study shows that Canada’s researchers out-perform the world, not only in their level of funding but in their ability to produce research that influences international peers. It’s Canada’s businesses that underperform, even though they, too, already benefit from generous tax treatment of private-sector R&D. A review of our science strategy that ignores our scientists would amount to a decision to put the weakest performers in charge of strategy. In the international competition for the best ideas and minds, that would be a decision to flee the podium.
 
-I suppose Chretien & Martin dragged us into a war with the middle east, but that was on the back of 9/11 at the time when the entire world was jumping to support the U.S.
It was Mulroney that sent our CF-18s to Doha, Qatar, along with three warships to fight in Gulf War 1 in 1990-1. Before that, Canada's deployments to the Middle East have been peacekeeping operations in the Sinai region, and of course Cyprus. Canada stayed out of Gulf War 2, and hasn't had combat troops in the Middle East since they were withdrawn from Gulf War 1.

We've been involved in Afghanistan for over ten years now, but that's not even conceivably in the Middle East, but is firmly planted in South-Central Asia.
 

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