Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
One good take-away from the provincial liberals losing - this white elephant won't be build.
Signed, WislaHD, a massive armchair transit advocate.
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Signed, WislaHD, a massive armchair transit advocate.
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
This isn't at all a white elephant. This system has been needed for 20+years. Even more so now that the Toronto-Waterloo innovation corridor is booming the way it is. You can't argue against it. Especially with the amount of commuters coming and going between the two cities. Case in point, this past week the 401 WB closed 4 times near Guelph.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Please show me the business-case scenario where HSR to Waterloo doesn't have a worse benefit-cost ratio than the UPX train has today.
And what can HSR do for the Waterloo region that GO-RER isn't already promising? Shaving off 20 minutes of trip travel time? With what level of frequency and how many billions of dollars spent?
If we are talking about Toronto-Montreal HSR, I'd welcome an advisory panel. No other region in the world is spending billions in HSR to connect cities the size of Waterloo, London and Windsor, unless they were intermediate stops between a city of similar size to Toronto.
The newest highspeed rail line in the world is going to open in Morocco by the end of this year, linking Casablanca (metro area 5m) and Tangier (metro area 3m) with the capital Rabat in between (metro area 4m). That is 350km of rail to connect those urban centres, which is a good comparison since Toronto to Windsor is also 350km of rail. In comparison, neither Windsor or London have even 500k people.
Here is the other good piece of news. That 350km Moroccan high speed rail project is going to have an operating speed of 320km/h. Meanwhile, what we are proposing as HSR for Toronto to Windsor clocks in at 250km/h. I am not sure if that even qualifies as HSR.
kEiThZ
Superstar
It's amazing how mass transit always needs a business case but highway expansion is an unconditional ask. The ultimate case for this rail line is economic integration. I'd like to know how that is to be accounted for.
Exactly. This would help for things like the Amazon bid. It would have been a huge to be able to tell Amazon they can locate in Waterloo and that their employees can be at Pearson in half an hour, and in Toronto in an hour, by HSR. No worries about Toronto's inflated housing market. Or access to international travel, academic and research partners in Toronto.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Couldn't they find a better name? You can't get a name that screams electioneering stunt more than "Planning Advisory Board". How much more non-committal could they have gotten?
It's unfortunate they politicized this and it'll disappear with this government. No progress for Southwestern Ontario for another decade.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I'd love to begin demanding business cases for highway expansion.
We can start with the Gardiner.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Hopefully GTAA is consulted and somehow they can roll the HSR project into the Pearson Transit Hub Project.
steveintoronto
Superstar
This remains a distinct possibility, albeit financing would have to come from the GTAA to do it, unless, of course, a private company finances the whole Higher Speed Corridor/HFR from Montreal to London. Likely it will be HFR+ higher speed from Montreal to Ottawa to Toronto and then travelling an improved corridor via Pearson and by-passing Brampton to Georgetown where it attains the present Mainline North alignment.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Refer back to the GTAA's Transit Mobility Hub Presentation, presented to Toronto last week. The hub will potentially (or should we say is planned to potentially) have a provision for a HSR in it. GTAA will presumably build the station but it up to any HSR planning group to incorporate it into their plans.
This can simply mean that the HSR station for Pearson will be sited in the same spot as the GTAA's transit hub, or as complex as incorporating both groups design plans into the others plans and having the others plan direct their own, i.e. GTAA adjusts their transit hub to reflect the HSR plan and the HSR adjust their plan to reflect the GTAA's transit hub.
jackass42
New Member
I don't understand this attitude.
Ontario has significant experience building highways so it would be pretty obvious, one would think, to not have advisory panels for all highway projects. Ontario does have panels for specific highway projects however, e.g. the GTA West Advisory panel. We have an entire government department whose sole function is to license drivers and build roads. We have limited capacity for rail at large (beyond Metrolinx) and zero for intercity rail.
Given HSR's large capital cost, it also seems pretty obvious for the government to move prudently. For one thing, I doubt that the provincial or federal governments have much in the way of bureaucratic expertise in HSR (which is why, I'd expect, that they appointed a Special Advisor in the first place). So, it seems pretty reasonable to seek outside and hopefully independent counsel. Second, we don't really have the financing models in place for a transit/transport project like HSR in Ontario. Third, no matter how you slice it, this is a project that will be decades long in the making. We know that the govt needs to conduct an Environmental Assessment. While this is going on, would it not make sense for the government to create an advisory body to oversee all the other aspects of the project?
Let's count our chickens. So far this year we have seen:
- A Special Advisor for HSR, a report and a business case.
- A commitment to proceed with an Environmental Assessment. I don't know what the status of this is but I recall it being in the Ontario 2016 budget as well.
- Formation of an advisory group.
Could it get binned? Sure. Is it the greatest project? Who knows. Are all parties involved dragging their feet on it? Maybe. But there has been some progress, you have to admit.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Let's first see GO RER electrification.
Focus on the ball, focus on the ball.
Focus on the ball, focus on the ball.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Electrification. Another thing they are trying to electioneer with. They could have gone with bold announcement launching electrification of Kitchener and the HSR at the same time. Instead we get a "Planning Advisory Board" for HSR and a Hydrogen Rail study for RER. The Liberals are starting to look almost as bad as the Tories to me, on transit. Almost....
At least the Tories are honest about not giving a shit about public transport.
syn
Senior Member
I think this is a worthwhile investment.
Places like London and Windsor are not only growing themselves, but becoming long-distance suburbs of Toronto.
The number of Toronto workers telecommuting from such locations is growing.
A city like London has a lot to offer - this kind of connection will be great for the region.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I like European high speed trains. For Europe.
But here:
The ball first! Focus, focus!
But here:
The ball first! Focus, focus!
jje1000
Senior Member
And with hydrail being pushed, are the eyes even on the ball at all?