[Ummagumma66]

well Calgary announced recently that it aquired some land to build the high-speed station should the line be developed, its in the East Village along 9Ave SE by 4 st SE, it was old CPR rail land, that is now an impressive fenced field of rocks..

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree that it's going to have to be phased, but I just think that it should be geographically phased, rather than having high speeds phased-in. For example, they could build Ottawa-Montreal or Kitchener-Pearson-Toronto first, and then other segments of the line a little bit later, but the line would always operate at 300km/h or the new standard 350 km/h. I might be misunderstanding you, though.

Cobourg and Port Hope would definitely have to be served by a single European-style parkway station along the 401, like the new Ebbsfleet in the UK or countless examples on the continent.

 

[dowlingm]

My suggestion would be an LGV from Toronto to Ottawa via Peterborough and on to Montreal. Essentially this line would capture airline traffic (TGV has hammered French/transborder regional flights) while "traditional" Quebec-Montreal-Kingston-Toronto-Windsor trains would continue to serve the lakeshore communities.

The reason an Alberta line (or an Ontario one) would cost more than LGV Est would be:

1. SNCF has TGV infrastructure, training etc. in place. AB would have to build it from scratch.
2. Will additional power stations be needed (hint - France is 70%+ nuclear)

One thought I've had is if VIA acquired Deutsche Bahn's 200km/h Siemens Class 605 4-car trains (ICE-TD)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/diesel/dmu/605/Muenchen/605-014-mt.jpg

They are diesel trains but more or less superceded in Germany by the electric variants. If a 200km/h diesel service worked out then electrification and employment of 300km/h TGV/ICE/Shinkansen trains could be contemplated.

Siemens is a well known brand in Alberta transit. On the other hand, Ontario in the persons of Toronto and Ottawa have rightly screwed around with Siemens so maybe best to go with Alstom in that corridor!

 

[Ummagumma66]

I would be interesting, but with Dishonest Ed not even honouring funding commitments to Calgary's LRT system it leavs me very weary of this project being anything more, than a pipe dream..

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

dowlingm: I don't think the cost of training and equipment would be all that great. Those are going to be normal costs of a project anyways and since building HSR lines is actually not all that difficult it would not require a lot of training for the construction aspect of it. I can see there being a higher cost though for training for the operational side. The only advantage that the Alberta line would have is it would amount to managing a single line with one type of service which is a much easier task that managing a European inner city mainline.

The point about the power plants is actually a really interesting one. On one hand an electrified system saves money because the cost of fuel becomes irrelevant. On the other hand, how much will it cost to construct enough power sources to operate the line. That would actually be a really interesting research topic.

I still disagree with the idea of running a line through Peterborough and along a northern path though. The terrain in that area is going to be more challenging and add a lot more to the costs.

The benefit of building in the existing corridor as well is that you can stage the project so you can bring smaller sections online one at a time as opposed to having to build it all at once. The biggest benefit of that is that instead of waiting 10 or 15 years to gain improvements in passenger rail all at once, you can make steady improvements that allow the service too grow. The final outcome would still be the same as most people suggest, a fully electrified HSR corridor built to 300km/h standards (excluding innercity portions). But with proper planning and staging you could avoid having to buy interim sets of diesel rolling stock and simply run the existing VIA fleet into the ground just as electrified service would begin.

 

[MisterF]

Cobourg and Port Hope would definitely have to be served by a single European-style parkway station along the 401, like the new Ebbsfleet in the UK or countless examples on the continent.

The existing CN and CP lines between Cobourg and Port Hope are a couple km south of the 401, almost right on the lakeshore and there aren't any interchanges between the two towns. The existing VIA station in Cobourg probably makes more sense - it's on a major arterial that meets the 401, but still just a few blocks from downtown.

How far apart are HSR stations close to major cities in Europe? If the dominant model has quite a few stations to serve commuters then the line going through Peterborough wouldn't make any sense. There's really nothing between Peterborough and Ottawa but a lakeshore line could have stops in Oshawa, Cobourg/Port Hope, Belleville, Kingston, and Ottawa.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

The existing CN and CP lines between Cobourg and Port Hope are a couple km south of the 401, almost right on the lakeshore and there aren't any interchanges between the two towns. The existing VIA station in Cobourg probably makes more sense - it's on a major arterial that meets the 401, but still just a few blocks from downtown.

I would probably agree with keeping stations in the towns and simply designating either Port Hope or Cobourg as an HSR station. I know that there are cases where European HSR lines have stations in fields between two cities but the practice has also been criticized. It would be worth looking at more and seeing just how effective that model is.

Actually I had never really considered Cobourg or Port Hope as being places to put an HSR station. The only reason I mentioned an upgaded line terminating at Cobourg was because it made sense in terms of building an upgraded inner city infrastructure. Essentially I thought that the first dedicated passenger rail section would run from Cobourg to Union Station and though built to a minimum standard of 160 km/h most places along the line would be served by either VIA local or GO services. Once primary HSR lines where built between cities then I would have had an HSR bypass built from just east of Cobourg to roughly Oshawa. But an HSR station in the Cobourg/Port Hope area does seem to make sense (especially as those two cities grow).

How far apart are HSR stations close to major cities in Europe? If the dominant model has quite a few stations to serve commuters then the line going through Peterborough wouldn't make any sense. There's really nothing between Peterborough and Ottawa but a lakeshore line could have stops in Oshawa, Cobourg/Port Hope, Belleville, Kingston, and Ottawa.

It depends quite a bit, but, a general rule would be that once a train leaves the central station it will possibley serve a suburban node within the city (or an airport) and then after that the distance of HSR stations is roughly 100km between each. But each line is likely to be different.

One easy way to deal with the issue is to simply rate stations/cities for their potential HSR market. So major points like Union, Pearson, Kingston, Ottawa, etc, would have full HSR stations and it would be assumed that most HSR trains would stop at these points. But there could be other stations, such as Oshawa, Port Hope/Cobourg, perhaps some suburban stations where HSR might be useful some of the time, but not all the time. In those cases you just build the stations with platforms that can accomodate HSR trains, but not necessarily the other service options of high order HSR stations. This way HSR can make use of some of the smaller stations when it makes sense from a service point of view, and ignoring them when it doesn't.

And with a proper passenger rail and HSR network it becomes less an issue of where to put stations and simply an issue of creating schedules that meet customer demand and provide fast service. It would be very likely that there would be some early morning, and late evening, commuter trains between Toronto - Montreal or Toronto - Ottawa that would go from central station to central station with no stops in between. There could be other trains that would make stops at more suburban nodes such as Guildwood, Oshawa, Dorval, etc, thus capturing a different market.

That is really why the Lakeshore line makes far more sense. If it is designed properly to allow for flexibilty in scheduling and train configurations, you can serve not just downtown to downtown markets between the major cities, but points in between which would greatly enhance the value of the service.

Edit: Another possibility to consider would be to connect Peterborough to the rail network via a line that would run from Port Hope to Peterborugh roughly along the Highway 28 routing. It might not be the fastest route for commuters (though would still not be bad on a proper network), but, if it was shown that a lot of growth would come from people from Peterborough also wanting to connect to other VIA services (taking a train to Montreal or using the train to get to Pearson) then it could be a way to serve both commuters and long distance travellers. In that case an HSR station in Port Hope could make sense since it would already serve as a transfer point for a group of passengers.

 

[unimaginative2]

Well, the route that was recommended in my study, and seemed to make quite a bit of sense to me, was the existing alignment out to Oshawa, hopefully upgraded to at least 200 km/h, and then a new alignment on the north side of the 401 as far as Kingston, followed by a new alignment up to Smiths Falls, and then the existing line north to Ottawa. The latter would have to be rebuilt for 300 km/h or whatever the service speed of the high speet train would be. All of the new alignments would also be built for the service speed. The problem with using existing lines serving existing stations at places like Port Hope and Cobourg is that the Kingston Sub is far to windy for any kind of real high speed service, and the people in those towns don't want elevated lines slicing through town with trains running extremely loudly at very high speeds.

Incidentally, as someone with friends in Port Hope and family in Cobourg, both towns would much perfer a new station in the middle than picking one town to have the stop. Port Hope was enraged when they were going to move all the trains to Cobourg. It's that civic rivalry thing.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

The more I think about it the more the idea of a shared station between Port Hope and Cobourg would probably be a fair solution. It would mean cheaper and easy to build upon land for an HSR station along with parking facilities which is a plus for that proposal.

The advantage to building a line that would be shared by both HSR and commuter services up to Port Hope/Cobourg is that it would benefit regional rail for the GTA so places like Clarington and Newcastle could have rail access. As well in Oshawa a station could be built near Courtice Rd which would allow for much better park and ride facilities and perhaps providing the city with development opportunities at its current station site. Since the area up to and including Port Hope/Cobourg is roughly or will be in the GTA commuter shed in the not too distant future, building this section accomodate that aspect makes sense.

The rest of the line an alignment roughly following the 401, or just north or south of it, and in a new corridor would be fine for the most part. The biggest reservation I have is that local service be maintained. So while the HSR line itself would likely bypass most towns, so long as spur lines leading into the town and heading back to the HSR line where built allowing local service to continue, and be improved in the process, then this would an acceptable solution.

There are lots of scenarios you could propose though and many are valid. Ultimately the best one will be the one that maintains local service, allows for fast, efficient, and flexible services (High speed, local, and commuter), and makes the most economic sense, or an acceptable balance between these interests.

 

[MisterF]

There's always the question of whether Cobourg and Port Hope are even big enough for an HSR station. They have just over 30,000 people between them, not exactly a big urban area. Regular local service connecting to HSR station in Oshawa or Belleville would probably serve the market well enough. As for Peterborough, most people there are going towards Toronto instead of Ottawa, so the market for connecting to HSR at Port Hope would probably be limited. Plus the Havelock sub leads straight into Toronto and it's not very busy with freight, especially during the day. It would be a lot easier to upgrade that for faster passenger service than to build a whole new line along Hwy 28.

 

[unimaginative2]

All the high speed rail authorities in Europe say that the most important thing in construction of a new high-speed line is maintaining reasonable station spacing, and only building stations where demand reallly warrants it. I'm not sure how I got on talking about Port Hope, but I think I was just suggesting it as another possible commuter station to Toronto that would get surprisingly good use. On many European lines, the most successful stations are in smaller cities close enough to major centres to make commuting worthwhile. Otherwise, I'd basically follow the alignment suggested by rather comprehensive report done in the 90s:

• Windsor to London on the CP alignment, with freight shifted to a shared CN alignment (it's already arrow straight, so rebuilding for high speeds should be quite easy). It could even run into Detroit, but I don't know if the demand is really there. They could make Detroit a customs preclearance centre, so that the border wouldn't be an issue. They use the same system at the train station in Vancouver.
• London to Kitchener on a new, likely more-or-less direct, alignment. I think that a stop at Stratford would have potential as a commuter hub and tourist destination, but it would take the route way out of its way and Stratford is simply too small to make it worthwhile. They could potentially upgrade the tracks from Kitchener to Stratford to allow limited through-running or perhaps a shuttle to connect with high speed trains at Kitchener.
• It recommends Kitchener to Pearson on a new alignment, but I don't think that's really necessary. I've thought that straightening the new highway 7 to Guelph and running in that right of way, which would conveniently connect with a bypass north of Guelph. The existing line is quite straight, so that shouldn't be a problem. It would certainly be the best route through Brampton.
• Pearson Airport would be the next station after Kitchener, ideally connecting with much-improved GO service to Brampton. The station would either be along the existing corridor, or following the European model, with a loop built south through the airport connecting directly to the terminal. One of the airport transit studies available on the Weston Community Coalition site has a possible design. The tracks would leave the Georgetown Line near where the Weston sub begins, then they would run in a tunnel under the runway until turning northeast for a station pretty much between T3 and T1. I've even scouted out a station location, and there's an employee parking lot that would be perfect. Then, it could return to the surface and run on the Blue 22 right of way to rejoin the Weston Sub, which it would follow down to Union.
• From Union, as I mentioned it would run in the existing right-of-way until Oshawa. CN has maintained the ability to massively expand the whole route, so it shouldn't be difficult to add two high speed tracks. Level crossings fortunately aren't very numerous, so minimal rebuilding would be required. A station was recommended at the existing Pickering station site.
• East of Oshawa, it was somewhat vague, saying "A new alignment on the north side of the 401." I'm guessing that it would follow the highway as much as possible, leaving the 401 right of way slightly where the curves are too sharp. I'd put a parkway station somewhere between Port Hope and Cobourg that would connect directly with the 401 on the European model.
• It would continue on the north-of-401 alignment to Kingston, where a new station would have to be built, presumably around the intersection with Division Street. The reason for the north-of-401 alignment is that a fair bit of land would need to be acquired to ensure a straight line, and north-of-401 is much less developed than south-of-401. I would say that the line could leave the 401 corridor briefly at Kingston to get closer to downtown, but the existing station isn't particularly close to downtown anyway so there isn't much point.
• From Kingston, it would travel northeast in a new corridor up to Smiths Falls. This alignment shouldn't be too difficult to build, though it would have to dodge some lakes and difficult grades.
• At Smiths Falls the high speed line would take over the existing VIA-owned route north to Ottawa. It's quite straight and should require minimal re-alignment.
• The Ottawa station is a bit of a wild card. The existing station is a really interesting design and would be a shame to lose, and it also has quite good connections with transit. On the other hand, it's quite far from downtown. Some high speed plans had the line run north along the O-Train corridor up to Hull, and then along the Quebec side of the Ottawa river to Montreal. The station would either be at Lebreton Flats or in Hull. This made much more sense when Mirabel was a major destination. Now with Dorval as the only airport, the southern corridor, which VIA already owns, makes much more sense. That makes station siting in Ottawa much more difficult. Unless a massive tunnel were built to loop it close to downtown, the existing station seems like the only bet. A dead-end spur up to downtown, potentially to the old Union Station, wouldn't be appropriate since the whole point of the line would be to make Montreal-Toronto timings competitive via Ottawa.
• As I mentioned, the line would probably closely track the existing VIA-owned route through Alexandria, entering Montreal along the present route. Trains stopping at Dorval would use the new loop that the airport authority is planning to build.
• The trains would then travel north through the Mount Royal tunnel -- conveniently already electrified! -- to Laval where another station would be sited. A new connection would then be built to allow it to join the CP corridor east to Trois Rivières. Unfortunately, that alignment is quite curvy and would have to be fairly heavily rebuilt. Accommodating the limited but still significant freight traffic would also be a problem.
• At Trois Rivières, I'd use the existing empty station. It's close to downtown and it's quite architecturally interesting.
• To Quebec City, it would continue to follow the CP corridor. The report I have proposed a stop around Ste Foy, but I really question whether this is necessary. Quebec isn't so big a city that it requires a parkway station, in my opinion. The final stop would be at Palais right downtown.

 

[ShonTron]

Points:

- A customs pre-clearance is exactly what I would propose for a beefed-up Toronto-Niagara-Buffalo route, build that roughly where the Exchange Street station is downtown.

- I wonder about the Brampton-Guelph alignment. Would this be north of Brampton? I'm trying to imagine how it would run from north of Brampton to Pearson. I'd be tempted to use the 407 alignment from Pearson to where it meets CP near 401/407 then head northwest from there.

- A Ste-Foy Parkway station makes sense because of the way Quebec City is laid out. The main university, a lot of the population and the better connections to the East via the Quebec Bridge are there.

- So no stop in Guelph? Belleville? These are well-used stations.

- You'd certainly need to run regional trains (at existing VIA-like levels of service) to capture markets like Brampton-Guelph-Kitchener (not that shabby), Belleville-Toronto, Toronto-Brantford-London, etc. That's been my fear of some of the high-speed proposals, that the rest of the network be ignored.

 

[unimaginative2]

- A customs pre-clearance is exactly what I would propose for a beefed-up Toronto-Niagara-Buffalo route, build that roughly where the Exchange Street station is downtown.

That would definitely be a good idea, but I still wonder whether there's enough traffic. For Toronto-Detroit, there just aren't that many people making the trip. I mean, it's a huge city and it doesn't make sense that there isn't much traffic, but would it be worth the investment? That's particularly true since any station location in Metro Detroit would inherently be far from most destinations since the city is so decentralized. I guess Detroit/Michigan might spend the money in an attempt to lure tourists.

- I wonder about the Brampton-Guelph alignment. Would this be north of Brampton? I'm trying to imagine how it would run from north of Brampton to Pearson. I'd be tempted to use the 407 alignment from Pearson to where it meets CP near 401/407 then head northwest from there.

The report I have is a bit vague, but basically I would use the existing GO/VIA line from Brampton until just east of Guelph, where it would have to have a bypass around the north side of the city. It could then either rejoin the existing line or use a new alignment (possibly the highway) to Kitchener. I can't think of any other alignment through or around Brampton that would make as much sense as the existing line.

- A Ste-Foy Parkway station makes sense because of the way Quebec City is laid out. The main university, a lot of the population and the better connections to the East via the Quebec Bridge are there.

That's definitely a good point, but I still don't know if there would be enough traffic to really make frequent stops worthwhile. It could be another TGV Haute Picardie. A good idea in theory, but in practice not very useful.

- So no stop in Guelph? Belleville? These are well-used stations.

I agree, but you just can't build stations that frequently on a high speed line. The report recommended neither (as well as no stop between Pickering and Kingston). I guess people from Guelph could use a beefed-up express GO service. Alternatively, some of the high speed trains could terminate at Guelph station, at least during rush hour. I would bet that the traffic would be there.

- You'd certainly need to run regional trains (at existing VIA-like levels of service) to capture markets like Brampton-Guelph-Kitchener (not that shabby), Belleville-Toronto, Toronto-Brantford-London, etc. That's been my fear of some of the high-speed proposals, that the rest of the network be ignored.

I agree. I'd definitely terminate some of the trains coming from the east at Hamilton, following the electrification of the Lakeshore West line. It's already very straight, so it shouldn't be hard to get 200 km/h or even better.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

A Port Hope/Cobourg station would not have to have all HSR trains making stops at it. But, it would likely be a market worth offering an HSR service the chance too serve. It also makes sense from a number of other points. Since those two cities are really the edge of the GTA commuter shed on the eastern side of the region it is a perfect place to end a shared commuter/regional/HSR line and from that point on have the line simply serving long distance purposes. And I know that the Havelock sub seems to be the suggested route for a Peterborough service but having a new alignment leading to a rebuilt Lakeshore line has a lot of benefits. The line itself would be about 31 km which is not a long distance and since it would mostly be single tracked, save a few bypass sections, not a great expense too build. And while there would be a lot of people heading too Toronto, it would provide people the chance to also travel east giving them a chance to utilize the full network.

Actually Peterborough is interesting because it is a city with a respectable population but no rail service whatsoever. This makes its hard to estimate how much demand there would be since there is no existing data to work from. But it also would be a really good opportunity to explore how to build rail service to places which currently have none. I admit I don't have any real proof that Peterborough would be a strong market and that it would actually provide a justifiable amount of traffic to connect it to the Lakeshore line at Port Hope/Cobourg, but I think that possibility is really worth investigating.

As for the alignments, I think that while a lot of them will stay the same, or close too it, I can reasons why some of them would be changed somewhat. Most of them are likely just too follow the current rail alignment or perhaps along the 401 corridor. But there is always going to be a difference between plotting out lines on a map and actually putting the ideas into the public domain. As soon as you start moving stations around or downgrading service it will get messy.

Ottawa is a total disaster and I don't even want to think about that debate.

I think there is a lot that is good about some of the previous proposals. But they failed for a lot of reasons and I think a lot of issues need to be addressed and rethought in any new proposals. I think the biggest problem that still exists about HSR proposals and has not been addressed is that it is presented as a project unto itself with no, or little, mention and integration with local VIA service and regional and commuter services in Toronto and Montreal. This is a major flaw in my opinion which unless corrected will make HSR a very hard project to sell.

Edit: I would also add to that last point that while cities like Guelph and Belleville likely do not warrant HSR service, it would be a mistake not to improve local or commuter service for the smaller centers. I would even go somewhat further and say that when a goal of creating a new network for passenger rail should be that it allows for easy expansion and servicing of new communities and cities which, with thoughtful planning, could easily be done.

 

[dowlingm]

Why is intermetro rail not succeeding at the moment?
1. Existing lines not fast enough and conflicts with slower commuter traffic.
2. Too many yawning gaps in the schedule

Considering the Ontario HSR routes - the new GO locomotives are being bought for hauling 12 coaches at 100km/h or so, not for speed. Unless the HSR is on a segregated alignment speeds north of 160km/h are likely to remain a pipe dream. Tapping the existing Lakeshore line is the easy option
but remains hostage to whatever CP/CN dictate - can you operate an LGV within meters of a cargo line?

Any HSR must also run hourly. If you miss an Air Canada flight and there's a seat available and pay the penalty you're on it in 55 minutes. If you miss a VIA train it could be 3-4 hours - bad enough that current journey times to Ottawa are north of 4 hours already. Irish Rail has recently gone clockface between Dublin and Cork and it has not only transformed the experience but multiplied the connections that can be made easily.

Improving VIA service, even to Lakeshore standards, to Kitchener and London should be a top priority - it's scandalous that Air Canada operate several daily services to London when a rail line to there runs outside the door.

For Ottawa I picked a Peterborough alignment because it would bring Peterborough into the network and because it's most direct - it might be a good spot to house the network operations and maintenance. The point of terrain is taken but considering that even on flat terrain LGVs are expensive then taking it into trickier terrain might be more costly but not proportionately so.

That said, I would think that the market exists for a non-stop service - not even Peterborough - if Air Canada and Westjet can offer 3,000+ seats on 23 flights each weekday in each direction then there's scope for non-stop HSR to Ottawa. In the short term, a line which ran through Ottawa to Montreal would be substantially slower than the plane but might still be a winner for Toronto travellers when check-in, airport transfer and onboard internet access are included.

[Edit to note Edmonton-Calgary - WestJet offers about 800 weekday seats each way, AC about 750 (but spread over more, smaller planes)

Separating "VIA HSR" from the rest of VIA could also be a brand - Porter Airlines would be obliterated by a Union-Ottawa nonstop but their customer service staff would be a welcome sight on a VIA HSR.