[drewp]

As someone who has worked with the homelessness population I know first hand a lot of these people get some sort of money from the government whether it is disability, Ontario works and/or welfare. Its not very hard to create an address for yourself. That being said i have seen first hand how many people (not all) cheat the system and blame those who are trying to help them out. I have seen many clients of mine who were on the street begging for money who live in social housing. There are many factors to which why some people are on the street. If you see people who are on the street they usually have concurrent disorders which mean they have a mental health issues and a substance abuse problem at the same time. These aren't people who just don't want to work, they just have no idea where to start.

Since working i have mixed feelings on the homeless population. So many of them refuse to conform to societal norms because they have no desire and no passion to succeed becuase they don't feel they can. Some enjoy taking the governements money and spending it on drugs and alcohol. Some are looking to get there life in order. The one common element is these people probably have had some sort of issues stemming from there teenage years where they experimented with drugs and rebellion. Most of these teenagers had issues that stem from there childhood. So when you look at a homeless person you must realize that the majority of thier issues stems from their childhood that have not been resolved. The older someone gets who lives on the street the harder it is see any progress. When i look at an older gentlemen i realize that most things will never help him because he is so set in his ways. Think about your parents do you expect them to change overnight even though society has. They can't because as you age you become more complacent in your life

The reason i say all of this is because the only way to curb any growth of the homeless population is to focus on the future generations those who are still growing and learning about themselves. Much more needs to be done with the youth population to see any progess for the future. Highschools need to be more aware of this problem and realize that these teenagers in suburbia could possibly be at risk of being homeless. One suggestion that i have is to create alternative schools for individuals who don't learn conventionelly. If youth neglect to see thier passion or a long term goal for themselves they will become rebellious to the point of choosing a life on the streets.

If you were to talk to many homeless individuals you would notice than many have been living on the streets for many years, usually stemming from there teens or in there twenties. This to me is the crucial stage of the homeless population. Focus a great deal of attention on the youth and pay attention to thier learning styles because not eveyone can focus on their studies. The reason why most people don't excel in school IMO is that there are too many internal conflicts they are dealing. This is where counsellors, teachers, schools and the government should be paying a lot of attention to instead of ignoring they rebellion.

It is kind of like a doctor who treats a patients symptom instead of preventing the issue before it happens.......We only deal with the issue when its in our face and never as a preventitive measure

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

So many of them refuse to conform to societal norms because they have no desire and no passion to succeed becuase they don't feel they can.

Interesting post drewp. I'm curious about the part of your post above, do you really think that many of thee folks refuse to conform to societal norms or are they just not able (generally)?

 

[drewp]

Interesting post drewp. I'm curious about the part of your post above, do you really think that many of thee folks refuse to conform to societal norms or are they just not able (generally)?

Well it really depends on their age. I think those who over 40 choose not too becuase their learned behaviour is so drastic from the rest. They have also learned to play the system. Trust me some of these people know the system better then people who have worked in it. A lot of these people are smart, smarter than you and I. This in there own way is an education.

I think the youth population pretend not to conform becuase they desperately want to fit in. They choose to stand out by dressing or behaving differently. They are creating negative attention this way probably because they received attention from their parents for the things they did wrong. Youth dress and behave differently becuase it keeps people away. If you notice not many of them will give you the sob story like the older homeless population because they don't want any contact with individuals. They would rather fight you on a matter than swallow there pride and ask for a helping hand.

I hope that answered your question, sorry sometimes i ramble.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Well it really depends on their age. I think those who over 40 choose not too becuase their learned behaviour is so drastic from the rest. They have also learned to play the system. Trust me some of these people know the system better then people who have worked in it. A lot of these people are smart, smarter than you and I. This in there own way is an education.

I think the youth population pretend not to conform becuase they desperately want to fit in. They choose to stand out by dressing or behaving differently. They are creating negative attention this way probably because they received attention from their parents for the things they did wrong. Youth dress and behave differently becuase it keeps people away. If you notice not many of them will give you the sob story like the older homeless population because they don't want any contact with individuals. They would rather fight you on a matter than swallow there pride and ask for a helping hand.

I hope that answered your question, sorry sometimes i ramble.

Yes, interesting observations. Thank you.

 

[drewp]

Yes, interesting observations. Thank you.

What's your view on this matter?

 

[tkip]

how do you get a job without an address? or with out a SIN number? how do you get a SIN number without an address? How do you get an address without an exsting address? We sometimes forget how screwed you truly are once you've fallen through the cracks?

This is something I've tried to explain to others over the years. It is really easy to critized someone who's poor or living on the streets for somehow being responsible for ending up in this state. For whatever reason, once you're homeless without an address, it's nearly impossible to get off the street.

For many of the reasons already mentioned in the above quote from paraone.

What we don't know are the events leading up this scenerio for these unfortunate inviduals. Were they sick? Mentally ill? Lose their job? Their spouse die or leave them? Were they just plain lazy and let things fall to ruin? Did they develope substance abuse after things went downhill as a means to cope with their misery?

So many possible variables here and it's too easy to dismiss it all and just assmume that that deserve whatever sorry fate we see them in.

I came from a extremely abusive and oppressive background. Mother packs a suitcase when you're 6 and tells you to get out. Forced out into the street. That kind of abuse.

Parents beat you down, take your money and raise you to never know how to take care of yourself without their presence. Very hard for people to understand this. Only with the help of others later in life, did I escape this miserable existance, cut ties with my family and learn to stand on my own 2 feet.

But there are enormous emotional and psychological problems that are going to be with me the rest of my life as a result of this. I will never be able to fully manage my affairs to the same extent as others becauses the skills just weren't taught to me until much later in life.

I came close to losing it all, with no hope or help and I got lucky and hit some lucky breaks with the right people at the right time, there for me. But in the dead of night sometimes, I wondered if I was going to end up on the street.

 

[Monaco]

Some panhandlers have been very aggressive and said derogatory things to me, making me feel unsafe. I was quite shaken afterward for awhile, so now I actively try to avoid direct encounters, including going through a different route because I don't want to chance an unpleasant encounter, even though most are polite and harmless.

I'll say a quick no if I'm alone and walk briskly away, but usually ignore if I'm part of a random pedestrian group, unless it was directly addressed to me. Sadly there is a social hierarchy among panhandlers; some are more "desirable"/friendly than others...and are probably the successful ones.

A few are abrasive and make comments on pedestrians as they pass (usually younger panhandlers) - this is rude and unacceptable from anyone. Is there a minimum amount? Two or three times I've been chastised for the amount I've given.....once for less than $1 in change, but that's all I really had and didn't know that before reaching into my pocket, and another time for a loonie. Again, this is rude.

I don't say sorry anymore because one man took offense to that once, followed me and tried to block my exit through the doors at a subway station. The station was empty and I was alone at the time.

I also don't know what to say.

Technically I'm not sorry. Can I spare some change? Technically yes. But will I? No. Especially if I see you every single day.

 

[drewp]

What's your point?

 

[TOreality]

Technically I'm not sorry. Can I spare some change? Technically yes. But will I? No. Especially if I see you every single day.

Exactly!!

Is the word Sorry not something you say when you have done something wrong and want to make it right? Apologizing for a mistake? an error or something wrong that you have caused?

The problem is Canadians tend to toss this word around as if no one knows the definition.

It is NOT wrong to not give change to someone on the street and nor should you apologize. It is your choice entirely to give or not.

As for the previous posts about how hard it is to come out of this state once you have entered it, I can help but beg to differ. If you want something bad enough, you are able to work for it. People who are living in the street are perfect resources for labourers, hauling building supplies, serving coffees, some are also very intelligent and can perhaps work their way into school and who knows, become rich. Many people have been through poverty, myself for one. I came to this city with nothing but 2 hundred dollars in my bank (which I didn't panhandle for, I did yard work for it). I rented someones disgusting basement in the west end in a rotted house with every bug you can possibly think of in the place. I used the address, got a job, saved and got my own place. went to school, worked, apartment, etc..

It is possible. You just NEED to want it bad enough and WWOORRKK to get it. You need not depend on peoples pocket change to bail you out and get you back on your feet.

As for the ones who seriously have an illness or substance abuse issue, that is a different story entirely. These are the ones who should have services available to them in order to get them off the street, which they do, and some utilize.

 

[tkip]

Living in a dream world...

If you think that once on the street you're hirable and people knowing you are homeless, will just ignore this and give you a job anyway. It just doesn't work this way. Yeah, some people scrape by and find a way off the street but they have help. The implication here is that you're homeless because you're lazy.

Far from being the case in a lot of cases.

But this point is lost on some people. They just don't want to accept this because they want to blame the individual for being the architect of their own demise and not see the other factors at play. Factors that could perhaps, play havoc with your life and land you in a not so pretty picture down the road.

I work in a hospital where I see a lot of folks, especially the elderly, on a fixed income, health failing and no family or friends, lose their place of residence and they end up wandering the streets. Are you telling me that they just "didn't want it enough" to have ever ended up in this situation?

And I might add, I see a multitude of elderly patients, wasting away in their rooms without ever having a visitor. No family or friends visiting. So many of these inviduals die, alone in their rooms. Something is clearly wrong here and it's a societal problem.

People just don't care anymore and we throw people into warehouses or worst and try our best to ignore them. It's not that different from what we see with homeless people.
People are disposable in our society.

This is how we deal with issues regarding the poor, the disadvantaged, the sick, the mentally ill, the unfortunate. We either throw them away or we pack them like sardines into a warehouse setting or we just blame them.

When people succeed, we praise them and note they must have had a good upbringing and good parents to have done this. When they fail, we fault them, isolate them and condemn them as being unworthy, lazy, workthless and having no drive.

Exactly what's happening here on this board.

Some are completely blaming the poor and homeless for deserving their fates. God, this type of thinking pisses me off to no end but what do you expect in a society where the individual is more important than the community.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

What's your view on this matter?

I'm not as informed as you are but from my casual observations I just think it's sad that someone ends up sitting on a dirty sidewalk begging for money. I know most of the regular panhandlers in my neighbourhood by face and they know me (and my dog). I used to give occasionally but more often than not many of them just want a minute or two to pat and scratch my dog, some make small talk, others don't but we always exchange smiles and then we continue on our way. No effort is involved and it gives them some pleasure and makes them smile. I learned way back that when I gave them change they then come to expect it each time so I stopped. Sometimes I'll drop a loonie or something when I see someone who looks like they really need it and pulls at my heartstrings outside of my nabe. You indicated many have homes and I'm sure they do but one thing I'll point out as one example is when I see a movie at Scotiabank I cut through Nathan Phillips Square on my way home around midnight-1am to walk up Bay Street and I'll tell you it's shocking how many people are sleeping on benches and under ramps there year 'round once the lights in the Square are turned off.

Some panhandlers have been very aggressive and said derogatory things to me, making me feel unsafe. I was quite shaken afterward for awhile, so now I actively try to avoid direct encounters, including going through a different route because I don't want to chance an unpleasant encounter, even though most are polite and harmless.

I've read this before in another thread. I've lived downtown for 26 or 27 years, I don't have a car so I walk, cycle or TTC everywhere. I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered aggressive panhandlers, I really don't think it's all that common. One particularly bad experience I had was in front of Shoppers Drug Mart in the Annex on Bloor Street 3 or 4 years ago, I thought the guy was going to take me down. When he asked for change I made eye contact, nodded no, kept walking and he started yelling and swearing at me then he got up and started following me in a really aggressive manner. He gave up after a minute or so but I have to tell you I was pretty freaked out. I would have called the police but I didn't have a cell phone on me. My most recent experience was in North York last summer. I came out of the north/west exit of the Sheppard subway which is a short walk to my lawyer's office and met a very aggressive panhandler right at the top of the stairs who gave me a hard time. In North York!

 

[kettal]

drewp, your theory does not address mental issues due to genetic condition or acquired brain injury. What percentage do you think this applies to, in comparison to those whose distress is a result of childhood events?

 

[kettal]

I've lived downtown for 26 or 27 years, I don't have a car so I walk, cycle or TTC everywhere. I can count on one hand how many times I've encountered aggressive panhandlers, I really don't think it's all that common.

Those of us who live here have a higher tolerance for what we call aggressive. So many tourists from around the world visit a few days in Toronto, go home and their strongest memory of the city is the panhandlers.

 

[drewp]

drewp, your theory does not address mental issues due to genetic condition or acquired brain injury. What percentage do you think this applies to, in comparison to those whose distress is a result of childhood events?

Well it may not, but most if not all people that i have worked with have post traumatic stress that stem from a difficult childhood. This in turn lies many issues that spiral out of control. When a person stops growing physiologically around the age of 25 they stop learning the same way a teenager learns. The foundation is set and it is harder to adjust their mindest. Again to my point that the youth are the key to curbing mental health issues and homelessness. People aren't born with bi-polar, schizophrenia, borderline personlity disorders and so on. This conditions are learned through a coping mechanism to deal with the pain they endured. If you would get to know anyone homless person they definetely have a story, that stems from their childhood, and their behaviour is directly related to issues that they have supressed.

I can honestly say that i haven't worked with anyone who solely can attest to their current state as a direct correlation to brain injuries

Some people who are born with mental illness have been given a lifetime of services. It is easier to diagnose someone as a toddler and provide them proper services to alleviate any stress that they may endure in the future than someone who has been abused behind closed doors. You can't look at a toddler and say he will suffer from anxiety or depression. Those who have had a troubled childhood, and i mean troubled beyond any or your wildest imaginations don't realize that this is abnormal, and learn to supress their feelings becuase they feel ashamed. That shame makes them angry and rebel against societal norms to the point that they create external conflict in their life to avoid the internal conflict that they don't want to admit.

 

[Torontovibe]

I can tell you one thing, once a person becomes homeless, it is next to impossible for that person to find a job. I have also worked in social services, helping the homeless and disadvantaged and I've seen no evidence of companies giving homeless people opportunities to work. I find it funny when I see people telling homeless people to get a job. Look how hard it is for unskilled, healthy people with homes to find work. Now give them nowhere to live, no phone, no access to a shower. Who is going to take the risk of offering them work, knowing all the difficulties and the probability of success. It just doesn't happen.

Also people wonder why some homeless people avoid shelters. Have any of you guys had lice or scabies? I have never had them myself but I have seen people who have and it's damned NASTY. You itch like a bastard from scabies and those bugs are not so easy to get rid of. (they are UNDER your skin)

Toronto's homeless shelters have had huge problems with lice and scabies, not to mention bed bugs. Now add in diseases like flue, contagious respiratory diseases, as well as others. You also need to follow rules and curfews, which might not be so difficult for a functioning, healthy person but for some people, especially those with addiction problems/mental issues, it's almost impossible.

Once you see the full picture, you begin to see people's motivation and you can understand why some people avoid shelters at all cost. I find it incomprehensible that there are so many mentally ill people, who seem to be in need of help and often violent, yet nobody gets them off the street. There are lots of seriously mentally ill people I see walking around, year after year, and nothing is done to help them. It seems that in Toronto, if you lose your mind and all your faculties, you are on your own. That's scary!