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Especially hilarious is Tim Hudak when be tries to call it the DST. The HST is really the work of his old partner Flaherty, and everyone knows it.
 
afransen said:
If you were a successful business owner, perhaps you'd be able to grow. Nevertheless, your anecdotal evidence isn't worth much. Things that don't appear to work on a micro level for every business often work at the macro level. Dozens of countries use value added taxes such as GST/HST. That is a fact. Prices fell and after tax return on investment rose in the Atlantic provinces after they adopted the HST. That is a fact. The net effect on government revenues of the array of tax changes this year is a wash, if not slightly negative. That is also a fact. It is not a tax grab, it is not bad policy, it will not dramatically increase taxes or harm the economy. It will be good for the economy of the province in the long run.

As far as economists being sometimes right and sometimes wrong, the same could be said for doctors. Does that mean you won't listen their advice?
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My business did grow and I sold it after many successful years and made a significant profit, thank you very much.

I get second opinions from doctors and I verify what they tell me; I don't trust them blindly. Neither do I blindly trust politicians or economists. At leasts doctors have my best interests at heart, I can't say the same for the other two groups.

And facts can be spun. That's what politicians do. Statistics and economic "facts" are fluid. My anecdotal evidence is what matters to me -- I have not seen the benefits of very many political promises for so-called improvement.

Saying that something will be good for the economy in the long run is not fact, it is conjecture. Just becomes dozens of countries have used this type of tax doesn't make it good. I don't exactly see the world economy booming in the last little while. And the Atlantic provinces are a very different kettle of fish (pardon the pun) from Ontario; their economy is very different from ours.
 
PinkLucy said:
My business did grow and I sold it after many successful years and made a significant profit, thank you very much.

I get second opinions from doctors and I verify what they tell me; I don't trust them blindly. Neither do I blindly trust politicians or economists. At leasts doctors have my best interests at heart, I can't say the same for the other two groups.

Saying that something will be good for the economy in the long run is not fact, it is conjecture. Just becomes dozens of countries have used this type of tax doesn't make it good. I don't exactly see the world economy booming in the last little while. And the Atlantic provinces are a very different kettle of fish (pardon the pun) from Ontario; their economy is very different from ours.
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Sounds to me that you believe pundits over economists or real world examples.
 
Nope, I believe my own experiences and draw my own conclusions based on reading and interpreting a wide variety of sources. All news sources are biased so I don't rely on just one; I read them all and make my own decisions. A sheep I am not.
 
Is there a website that shows or charts the historical tax rates in Ontario and Canada? It would come in handy for arguments with my "all taxes are evil" friends, who think things were so much better years ago before that awful McGuinty guy came along. ;)
 
"I don't exactly see the world economy booming in the last little while. And the Atlantic provinces are a very different kettle of fish (pardon the pun) from Ontario; their economy is very different from ours."

Give me a break. Do you honestly believe Ontario is a special little snowflake that doesn't behave like any other place on earth?
 
No I do not. I think we have very different economies, ours strongly based in manufacturing and the Atlantic provinces in more seasonal industries such as fishing. We also have very different population levels. There are a multitude of variables that impact the economy so you can't simply say that because something worked in one location at one point in time, it will therefore work elsewhere in the same manner.
 
Thankfully we have economists that have developed models that do a fairly good job of predicting the impacts of these kinds of policy changes. While not perfect, it is much better and more constructive than people supplying anecdotal evidence and gut feelings.
 
PinkLucy said:
No I do not. I think we have very different economies, ours strongly based in manufacturing and the Atlantic provinces in more seasonal industries such as fishing. We also have very different population levels. There are a multitude of variables that impact the economy so you can't simply say that because something worked in one location at one point in time, it will therefore work elsewhere in the same manner.
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VATs like the HST and GST are much better for an exporting manufacturing jurisdiction than RSTs like the PST. Removing double (or triple, or quadruple) taxation on inputs all the way up the value chain will reduce prices and increase profits. Think about it this way, in your old business the HST would make it so you would never pay any sales tax as a business ever again. Not a cent.

Switching from a product only tax to one that taxes services too will help with Ontario's productivity problem, while removing other exemptions (and compensating with broad based tax relief) will reduce distortions. It is much more effective to provide an income subsidy to the poor to allow them to pay extra for certain things that the tax will increase on than to provide exemptions for everyone. The government is doing this by expanding the GST refund that low income people already get.
 
PinkLucy said:
That would explain the recent recession I guess. All those great predictions and policy changes.
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Canada and Ontario only has control economic policy within its borders and we came out of it in much better shape than anyone because of the policies put in place by our governments. Unfortunately, you can't economically isolate yourself from a global phenomenon like the recession we just had, so the policies can only do so much.
 
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