[rbt]

You would know that most subway construction would be subsidised, like Transit City, right? Except for actually hiring new drivers, the costs are close to diddily squat.

Just because the cost is externalized to a different entity doesn't mean the cost does not exist.

In fact, that is the entire premise of the lawsuit for BC and Ontario government lawsuits against tobacco companies.

It also happens to be why most people drive rather than take public transit.


You can just as easily externalize all operations costs for tranist too. Eliminate the farebox and send the bill to the province. In fact, eliminate Transit City and we could have nearly 10 years of 100% free public transit in Toronto.

 

[newuser2k9]

In Toronto, the cost recovery of bus and streetcar routes are basically the same. Unfortunately the TTC does not publish that info anymore (which make me suspicious), but they still publish ridership and total cost so we can calculate cost per rider of any route ourselves:

[B]Route		Riders	Cost	Cost Per Rider[/B]
[COLOR="Navy"]29 Dufferin	43,600	$49,300	$1.13
25 Don Mills	40,600	$47,000	$1.16[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]509/510 Spadina	48,000	$59,000	$1.23[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]36 Finch W	42,600	$54,900	$1.29
35 Jane		39,000	$51,500	$1.32
34 Eglinton W	41,100	$57,300	$1.39[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]505 Dundas	35,200	$50,400	$1.43[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]54 Lawrence E	33,800	$52,800	$1.56[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]512 St Clair	31,000	$50,200	$1.62[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]39/139 Finch E	44,600	$74,000	$1.66[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]504/508 King	53,100	$96,000	$1.81
506 Carlton	41,200	$75,400	$1.83
501 Queen	43,500	$87,500	$2.01[/COLOR]

Edit: Whoops! Sorry, read the wrong column for that. Some bus routes though do exceed costs of $3.50 per rider, which is way more than the streetcars. It all depends on the route.

 

[drum118]

Edit: Whoops! Sorry, read the wrong column for that. Some bus routes though do exceed costs of $3.50 per rider, which is way more than the streetcars. It all depends on the route.

The problem with those numbers is the ridership can be 5 years out of date.

At the same time, everything is lump into one pot.

If you broke the cost down by each type of service, you will get different cost ratio for them.

You need to look at ratio per seat, per Km, per hour also to see what each route is doing along with cost.

Because TTC has so many fare structures, it hard to say what the revenue per rider is. TTC is saying it is $1.80 per trip revenue for each rider, but I have said it more like $1.60.

When I am using a GTA pass, I have got my cost down to $.47 per trip as a heavy user. I just destroy TTC route ratio. This will also to any TTC pass holders also who are heavy users.

When transit systems get the smart card, TTC will have a true cost per rider as well real numbers for using the system as well each route daily.

 

[newuser2k9]

The problem with those numbers is the ridership can be 5 years out of date.

At the same time, everything is lump into one pot.

If you broke the cost down by each type of service, you will get different cost ratio for them.

You need to look at ratio per seat, per Km, per hour also to see what each route is doing along with cost.

Because TTC has so many fare structures, it hard to say what the revenue per rider is. TTC is saying it is $1.80 per trip revenue for each rider, but I have said it more like $1.60.

When I am using a GTA pass, I have got my cost down to $.47 per trip as a heavy user. I just destroy TTC route ratio. This will also to any TTC pass holders also who are heavy users.

When transit systems get the smart card, TTC will have a true cost per rider as well real numbers for using the system as well each route daily.

We won't get presto for a while. But I think the root issue with the TTCs situation is it's failure to capture the market at the edge of the city. Even though you destroy their profit model, since essentially your routes would run without you or not, they are still making money off you. If somehow they could negotiate with Toronto to, say, give slight tax breaks on metropass owners outside the core (where ridership is much higher per capita), you would promote increased usage - and probably not on the same heavy level as yourself.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Given the upcoming budget crunch for the TTC, I'd like to see what kind of ideas are out there other than fares and government subsidies for transit funding.

It'll have to be fares. $5 a trip should about cover the entire funding gap. You'll lose some riders with that $5 price, but IMO a large percentage of those on the TTC are there because they have no choice, i.e. have no car, are too poor to own a car, or have car but can't afford the commuting time and parking cost. It's a captive audience that would have to pony up the $5 or walk.

As for congestion fees, how would this work? During rush hour the entire city is packed full of cars, not just those heading downtown. Would you simply bill every car entering the city borders? You'd need a lot of scanners or photo traps to capture all that traffic, especially those that get off the highways and onto the side streets.

If public transit is going to work, it has to pay it's own way, and that IMO is $5 a trip. We could argue all day that public transit is a public good and benefit to the entire city, GTA and the environment, and thus everyone should have to pay more in their taxes, but that argument isn't getting anywhere.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Higher fares combined with a income tested low income cheap monthly pass (like Calgary) would work.

Also after the new fare system is implemented you could raise peoples vehicle registration levy but give them a "presto" card with the equivalent amount on it.

I would bet only half of that value would ever be used.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'd be interested in a TTC surcharge applied to all parking fees in the city. Say 50 cents flat-rate for every regular parking fee from a machine, $2 on top of temporary permits, $5 on top of monthly permits and $10 on top of fines for illegal parking. And throw a $100 fine on there for parking in a handicap spot.

TTC fare increases should always be mitigated by increases in the cost of parking. I really can't see a downside to this.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Does Toronto have a parking levy on existing spots in downtown? I know that is how Calgary raises some money. $20 a month per spot. Applied on the spot owner so as to make the collection of it much easier.

 

[Fresh Start]

There are countless streams of funding that the City/Province aren't even considering that could assist in increasing market efficiency and reducing social costs. For every $20 the Province lacks in matching dollars it forgoes $80 in federal money. Why should things have to be this way? The most common forms of transit funding the municipalities/Gov’t of Ontario could explore include various types of loans, bonds, subsidies, and beneficiary charges. Other methods include public-private partnerships, internal cross subsidization, converting carpool lanes to toll lanes, existing tolls, gas taxes, development fees, provincial real estate transfer/deed recordation taxes (e.g. $3.30 per $1,000 of property conveyed), and parking taxes which can be levied as a percent surcharge on parking transactions or as a flat fee for hourly/daily/monthly rates. Fluctuations in the economy that might greatly reduce one particular revenue source, may leave other revenue sources relatively stable or even increased.

I would also recommend the Province/Ottawa hire an independent consultant group to conduct a formal audit of the transit agency (TTC), to determine whether the same or better public transit services could be provided at a lower cost. Chances are tens of millions of dollars could be saved from improvements to its service efficiency and route management. Paying drivers to park vehicles to go buy a Tim Horton’s or read the newspaper while their passengers are running late for work is just one of several easily identifiable problems that need correction.

 

[nfitz]

Well if they raising the Metropass by 15% then I hope that the Green P parking goes up 15% as well! And that would provide some revenue. Perhaps they can both go up 10% instead.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I think that non-Torontoians should pay a higher fare since the city subsidies the 30% that the fare does not cover. Why should someone coming in from Vaughan and use a Steeles bus and subway that is 30% paid by the property taxes in city of Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think that non-Torontoians should pay a higher fare since the city subsidies the 30% that the fare does not cover. Why should someone coming in from Vaughan and use a Steeles bus and subway that is 30% paid by the property taxes in city of Toronto.

How do you plan on enforcing that? If you want to raise money from the 905ers, then impose road tolls. The tolls would promote transit use and raise money.

 

[Darwinkgo]

How do you plan on enforcing that? If you want to raise money from the 905ers, then impose road tolls. The tolls would promote transit use and raise money.

Differential Metropass rates. Would be hard to enforce on fares however.

 

[subway safety]

Better Barrier

Hi, I am the Dragons Den gal,

I think building funding for the TTC is best achieved by making your existing system you have more EFFICIENT.

It is a whole lot cheaper to bring efficiency than it is to build new lines.

Nobody tends to develop all the ideas that could be at one's finger tips to improve efficiency in what you have.Just because things are done a certain way .....for ever.... don't mean it is efficient. Changing how you load and unload passengers. Changing key strategies in where you loads subway passengers. Making strategic plans for example you load up your end cars to only exit at Yonge & Bloor and yet not allow those cars to unload at Bay and St. George. Now you have a senerio where whole train cars are set up to exit entirely, with no loading at Yonge and Bloor.

Using specific queuing methods, while using a specific "Barrier Wall" with "enhanced passenger flow" not ABS Pipe like on the show. Obviously I was just attempting to show a 'NEW CONCEPT' of separated passenger flow within a subway environment. With a will to improve efficiency. The answers are there if the TTC will choose to actually EFFECTIVELY change FULLY DIRECT PEOPLE' using specific methods to change what today obviously does not work.
Without the will to improve efficiency, things stay the same. Look at DisneyWorld, thousands of people are moved about without pushing and shoving and being exposed to dangerous "open pits". This is what I am talking about. TTC needs a traffic lighting system to direct passengers on subway platforms, and they need to physically separate passenger flow to improve efficiency, no matter what product they use (not ABS PIPE) ha, ha, lol, but using motorized screen wall, automatic doors, gating whatever, as long as you bring some sort of ORDER TO THE PLATFORM. I have train simulation proof using just 6 boarders, 9 alighters and by just changing their attitude, train dwell time is reduced consistently by 18 seconds.
The Dragons Den shows primarilily one must "phsycially" separate passenger flow to create the highest efficiency. Sharon.

 

[cacruden]

First the payment system needs to be upgraded to something like London, Tokyo, or Paris - then we should go to a zone or distance based system. This type of system would also allow private firms to bid on construction and running of lines - and the rates that are charged for those lines - which would provide a way of private firms to build and operate a line but the use of that line would be invisible to the end user other than the potential difference in fare structure.