steveintoronto
Superstar
VIA used to run more connecting buses a generation or so ago, still does here:
It might take the province to step-up to the plate on this...
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- Thread starter Jonny5
- Start date
VIA used to run more connecting buses a generation or so ago, still does here:
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I also noticed the lack of comprehensive map for intercity buses in Ontario so I started plotting them in Google Earth to see what the network actually looks like. I included the frequency of service (in buses per day) as an attribute because there's a big difference between 1 bus per day (Peterborough-Ottawa) and 19 buses per day (Toronto-Niagara). But this is not a very good way of displaying bus routes since they all go on top of each other where they share a route. Which is most of the time since they tend to stick to the 400-series highways.
Red = Megabus / Coach Canada
Blue = Greyhound
Purple = Robert Q
Yellow = Ontario Northland
Green = GO Transit
Black = intercity passenger railways
This map is still incomplete, especially in northern Ontario.
If I have time this week I'll try my hand at making a schematic map of Ontario's intercity bus network. But it would be for illustrative purposes only - I don't intend to put in the detail and accuracy required for wayfinding, nor do I intend to keep it up to date.
Red = Megabus / Coach Canada
Blue = Greyhound
Purple = Robert Q
Yellow = Ontario Northland
Green = GO Transit
Black = intercity passenger railways
This map is still incomplete, especially in northern Ontario.
If I have time this week I'll try my hand at making a schematic map of Ontario's intercity bus network. But it would be for illustrative purposes only - I don't intend to put in the detail and accuracy required for wayfinding, nor do I intend to keep it up to date.
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Garuda
Active Member
It amazes me how some rural parts of Ontario are completely dry of a regional bus service. Really shows the reality of the rural-urban divide in this province.
A few routes that come to my mind:
North Bay - Ottawa = Ontario Northland
Toronto - Kincardine - Port Elgin = Car Ar
Toronto - Lindsay - Haliburton = Car Ar
They are Charters but the service serves rural areas that have no public transit. The routes are milk runs but can be an asset for some users. The Car Ar service to Haliburton is really helpful for students going to the Haliburton School of Art + Design.
More info:
http://www.can-arcoach.com/schedule-services
rbt
Senior Member
While not full sized coaches, there are a number of smaller bus routes which terminate at Pearson Airport. I think they should count as it has fixed stop placement and runs on a fixed schedule. I've seen people using the Grey Bruce Air Bus to go from tiny town to tiny town.
Reasonable frequencies, horrible route for actually going to Toronto from Kincardine.
http://www.greybruceairbus.com/airport
Another that I've not used:
http://northernairport.com/index.php/cities
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ShonTron
Moderator
There used to be a bus from Toronto to Owen Sound - three days a week it went via Brampton, Orangeville, and Markdale, the rest of the days it went via Guelph, Fergus, Mount Forest and Durham. That's gone. There's still a Greyhound bus that goes to Owen Sound, but it goes through Barrie, Collingwood, and Meaford. I'm not sure if the bus to Midland via Barrie still exists. PMCL used to have a few daily routes before Greyhound bought it and cut things back. (PMCL also had the contracts for Barrie and Midland transit as well; First Group -- Greyhound's parent -- still has these contracts.)
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I tried to get a sense of Greyhound Canada's network from their website, but I was completely unable to do so. I could not find any system map, route maps, or route timetables. So basically they just assume that every city is connected and that potential riders assume that there is a Greyhound bus that goes where they want to go. And both of those assumptions are clearly false. For example, Cornwall, ON comes up as a destination from the dropdown menu, yet as far as I can tell, there is absolutely no Greyhound bus service that goes there.
So I went ahead and fact-checked each one of the routes shown on the map you linked, using the trip planner on the website.
Here's what I found: Routes in solid grey do exist; routes with "X" no longer exist.
Greyhound Canada network
Current state of discontinued routes, as far as I can tell:
Hamilton - Niagara: No service
Guelph - Owen Sound: No service
Toronto - Owen Sound: No service
Thunder Bay - Hearst:
Hearst - Cochrane: Operated by Ontario Northland
Cochrane - Sudbury: Operated by Ontario Northland
Cochrane - North Bay: Operated by Ontario Northland
Barre [sic] - North Bay: Operated by Ontario Northland; a carrier abbreviated "HMT" also operates at least as far as Orillia,
Peterborough - Pembroke: No service
Kingston - Cornwall: Operated by Megabus
Cornwall - Montreal: Operated by Megabus
Ottawa - Cornwall:
Ottawa - Grand Remous: Operated by Autobus Gatineau
As we've established here, there is no central place where I can look up all the bus services together, so I'm relying my own knowledge of intercity operators. So some of the routes listed as "No Service" may well have some service that I haven't heard of.
It is rather concerning that in a growing region such as ours, the amount of intercity bus service seems to be going down rather than up. Increasing population with decreasing transportation options is obviously a recipe for traffic congestion. Sure, some routes are getting taken over by GO and Ontario Northland, but that's only a handful of routes. The Hamilton-St.Catharines-Niagara service that existed until 2014 was discontinued with the claim of "unfair competition from GO Transit". And this claim was published in media even though even the slightest amount of fact-checking would reveal that GO doesn't operate any competing service. To get from Hamilton to St. Catharines or Niagara on GO Transit, you'd need to take a bus north to Aldershot, then a train north to Burlington, then a slow local bus back south into Niagara. Clearly that absurd option was not siphoning any ridership off of Coach Canada's direct bus.
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reaperexpress
Senior Member
I think I've got all the intercity bus services in Ontario, so if you know of any others, let me know:
Blue = Greyhound
Red = Megabus / Coach Canada
Brown = Can-Ar
Purple = Robert Q
Yellow = Ontario Northland
Green = GO Transit
Black = intercity passenger railways
I also compiled the schedules for a couple routes where there are multiple companies:
GLC = Greyhound Lines Canada
ONTC = Ontario Northland Transportation Commission
HMT = ??? [EDIT: Hammond Transportation - thanks IRT_BMT_IND]
Weirdly, Ontario Northland trips 34, 16 and 32 are not shown in ONTC's route timetable, but they do show up in both the Ontario Northland trip planner and the Greyhound Canada trip planner.
Blue = Greyhound
Red = Megabus / Coach Canada
Brown = Can-Ar
Purple = Robert Q
Yellow = Ontario Northland
Green = GO Transit
Black = intercity passenger railways
I also compiled the schedules for a couple routes where there are multiple companies:
GLC = Greyhound Lines Canada
ONTC = Ontario Northland Transportation Commission
HMT = ??? [EDIT: Hammond Transportation - thanks IRT_BMT_IND]
Weirdly, Ontario Northland trips 34, 16 and 32 are not shown in ONTC's route timetable, but they do show up in both the Ontario Northland trip planner and the Greyhound Canada trip planner.
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IRT_BMT_IND
Active Member
HMT = Hammond Transportation. They run a Barrie - Orillia commuter service. I think it was a PMCL service back in the day but don't quote me on that.
ShonTron
Moderator
You could also take the 2-Barton bus to Barton and Nash to GO Transit Route 12. But the GO bus stops at park-and-rides in Grimsby and Beamsville, far from where most people live, and the stop in St. Catharines isn't very helpful for anyone heading downtown (the main St. Catharines Transit terminal) or to Brock University or Niagara College. The old Highway 8 bus was much better for that.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
When I lived in Hamilton I travelled frequently to St Catharines. I always took the Coach Canada bus, because I lived within walking distance of Hamilton Centre station and my destination was within walking distance of the St Catharines Transit terminal. The main problem I had with the service was that there were very few direct express trips per day. I once inadvertently booked a local bus along Highway 8 rather than an express bus on the QEW, and that was so painfully slow that I made sure to never do that again. I think the reason the service was not successful was not that there was unreasonably competitive alternatives, it was that Coach Canada's service was so uncompetitive that people would do anything to avoid it (driving, carpooling or simply not travelling at all).
That one time I did end up on the local bus, hardly anyone got on or off at the local stops. I assume that Coach Canada was mandated to provide that service, because it clearly wasn't the most profitable use of that bus's time. But now that corridor has no bus service whatsoever, express or otherwise. Maybe if Coach Canada could have exclusively operated non-stop Hamilton - St Catharines - Niagara Falls, the service might still exist. The same thing goes for the Hamilton-Kitchener service. It gets off Highway 8 at every little town to drive down the main street, and often struggles to get back on after (turning left onto a highway is quite difficult in a bus). But I have never seen anyone get on or off in those towns, so all it accomplishes is to make the service less attractive for the people who do or might use it to travel between KW and Hamilton.
Given the state of intercity buses in the province (i.e. the lack thereof), I wonder if it would be best to heavily deregulate intercity bus routing. Although local service is evidently valuable to the small communities it serves, so much of the province already lacks local bus service that I don't think we can justify enforcing it on the remaining bus corridors. Bus companies should be allowed to operate whatever service will carry the most passengers, because the more people buses carry, the more we save on highway construction. Following deregulation, short-sighted bus companies might beef up service between major cities, but those routes will become increasingly uncompetitive as GO Transit and VIA Rail increase service. In the longer term, bus companies would need to focus on services which fill in the gaps of the rail network, operating missing links such as Kitchener-Hamilton and feeder services such as Port Stanley - St Thomas - London.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Would OC Transpo Rural Partner Routes fit in here? They are operated by private companies, and fares as well as schedule (I believe) are set by the company. There is some fare integration with a special pass.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Yes, I think they do belong. Thanks for pointing those out to me, they have quite an interesting arrangement with OC Transpo. I think that's along the lines of what we're looking for in this part of the province - a centralized listing of routes and schedules for the multitude of private bus operators. In Ottawa there is the added bonus of Transitway access, though that has now been permanently closed by the LRT. I wonder if there are any private operators who would be interested in using the Mississauga Transitway.
Among the rural partner routes is a Cornwall-Ottawa bus service, possibly a successor to the Greyhound service indicated on the out-of-date map discussed earlier.
Garuda
Active Member
Looks like Kasper Transportation took over this service: http://gokasper.com/bus/scheduled-bus-routes/
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Definitely looks like it. Or least the Thunder Bay - Longlac segment of that route, and also Sioux Lookout - Thunder Bay.
Here's an interesting article on them, as well as intercity route licensing in general.
ShonTron
Moderator
The trouble with those Ottawa commuter routes is that many require a pass to ride, and don't allow single-ride ticketing. The Cornwall-Ottawa bus is one of those.
Not helpful for passengers making occasional trips - such as for medical reasons, to visit family or friends, or for students heading home on weekends or holidays.
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