buildup
Senior Member
Is anyone outraged that Canada's Melissa Bishop who finished 4th in the 800 metre race was beaen by 3 interxex athletes?
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Johnny Au
Senior Member
What if it were to turn out that Melissa Bishop is secretly intersex and hid that extremely well?
DSC
Superstar
Not me.
rbt
Senior Member
Even by conservative estimates there are around 560k intersex women world wide; through no fault of their own. It's not unexpected that many would be top athletes.
If you start eliminating people with non-typical genetics (birth defects effectively) then nearly all top Olympic athletes would be eliminated. Gymnasts are short, hurdle runners are tall, swimmers have long arm reach, ...
Purposeful modification is a different matter but I think if you're born with it (since factory order babies aren't yet a thing) then it should be allowed.
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Skeezix
Senior Member
No. Not at all.
Northern Light
Superstar
The word 'outrage' seems terribly misplaced here. Assuming one accepted that there might be an unfairness around intersex athletes competing on otherwise female competitions, I still can't fathom the use of that word.
Far be it from me to judge; but I hardly get that upset when I hear about the money waited on another Royal hand-waving tour.........
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As for the issue itself. I think there probably is a (perceived) real issue around fairness. However, as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, most athletes enjoy natural advantages (those not imparted by training).
We do account for these partially, of course, in so far as we divide women from men, acknowledging the relative, average differences in size/muscle mass; as well as within certain sports, by subdividing into weight class (boxing, wrestling etc.)
If the object is to measure 'pure' ability, as apart from physical advantage, I imagine that to be nearly impossible (weight classes of 1kg each?, athletes all the same height?, how about an age adjustment while we're at it?)
If the object is relative fairness, then we do a poor job now, by not diving basketball into different height classes, same for swimming, arguably track and field; while also ignoring weight class in shotput, etc.
I do understand, that if we've set aside the 'female' category specifically so that women will have a chance to compete where by and large this wouldn't occur, in a sex-neutral sport competition, there is a concern.
But I'm not sure where one would logically draw a line and say 'advantage up to this point, but no further'.....
Sport probably could come up w/more consistent principles, on the other hand, there might be higher priorities for humanity's brain power, which on many days, seems in short supply as it is.
doady
Senior Member
The Olympics aren't divided by sex (male vs. female), they are divided by gender (men vs. women). End of story.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Nothing stops Canada from fielding a hyperandrogenist runner in the same race - admit it, the games are party about finding the biological/physiological exceptions in the "mundane" anyways. In any case, perhaps the testestrone level based limits can be reinstated - we do categorization based on weight in wrestling anyways, and it's totally arbitrary.
AoD
ksun
Senior Member
End of story? Guess all male athletes can simply "claim" a female gender to compete then? Then the real females (physically) will have no chance to win any medals.
This sex vs. gender difference is one thing in normal life, because a male by claiming to be female, it doesn't really cause harm to anyone else; however, in sports, it makes a huge difference and creates massive unfairness.
Melissa Bishop is the champion in my mind. She got beaten by three intersex athletes. This "gender" thing should play ZERO role in sports. What matters is sex.
Of course it is not the athletes' fault since they are born with it. However, in sports, the whole point of having male vs. female events is to allow two sexes to compete fairly, otherwise, why bother separating them at all? Why not just have one game, regardless of sex? If you are not a "female" by this standard, you shouldn't compete in female events. it is completely different from being born with longer arms or shorter legs, because there are no events specifically for athletes who are 2m tall more, or those who are 150cm or shorter.
if as you imply, what matters is "gender", then tell me what exactly is the reason to have events for both genders, since being male or female is simply a matter of how you recognize yourself, and has nothing to do with your internal organs?
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buildup
Senior Member
Never thought I'd use the "politically correct" charge, but with all due respect your view is hypocritical. And you're raising a straw man argument about the superior genetics of athletes. No one doubts Usain Bolt is male. No-one doubts Melissa Bishop is female (she was checked). Intersex athletes are biologically neither make nor female, but a blend (closer to male). If you hold to your argument, women's events will increasingly be dominated not by women, but by intersex athletes.
Anyone who knows female athletes who have trained hard will understand how unfair that is.
Its odd you'd raise the statistic of 560k intersex women globally. That is less than 1 in 6,000 women! Yet they placed Gold, Silver, Bronze!
buildup
Senior Member
End of what story? What are you talking about?
buildup
Senior Member
I am a guy and have no vested interest, but its outrageous to me to see the hopes and dreams of women crushed in this bizarre fashion. Did you look at the intersex athletes? Their muscles, their height, jaw lines. Its a travesty, and I'll go one step further and saw they know it themselves.
Johnny Au
Senior Member
There needs to be a third category: intersex
This way, intersex athletes have their own events and those who are verified as being completely female have their own events.
Not just that, but basketball needs a separate event for males under 5' 6" (the same can be said about swimming).
Currently, equestrian is one of the few Olympic sports that don't discriminate by gender in any way, since the horse is doing much of the performance.
This way, intersex athletes have their own events and those who are verified as being completely female have their own events.
Not just that, but basketball needs a separate event for males under 5' 6" (the same can be said about swimming).
Currently, equestrian is one of the few Olympic sports that don't discriminate by gender in any way, since the horse is doing much of the performance.
Jonny5
Senior Member
But do we know if there are intersex horses that are skewing results? I don't, but am outraged about it none the less!
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I found it amusing that we don't demand intersex be established as a legitimate third gender for anything official (passport, whatnot) and yet there is the demand to treat them as a separate category in sport.
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