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I wouldn't call this "Built out", far from it.

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I really think people need a bit of a reality check in terms of where the surface portion is running, it isn't exactly a superdense medieval european city. There are 16 lights on the entire route, 9 of which will barely, if at all effect the LRT because of them being low volume and only existing to allow for the traffic to make left turns onto the street. (which of course means that they can be delayed a bit to allow for an LRT across the light without major traffic imacts) At most you will have maybe a 30 second deviance in travel times along the stretch, something that can easily be changed by going a little slower or faster once entering the tunnel.
 
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innsertnamehere said:
Stations in Toronto that don't provide too much weather protection:

Rosedale
Davisville
Eglinton West
Lawrence West
Glencairn
Yorkdale
Wilson
Warden
Victoria Park
Keele
Kipling
Kennedy (RT portion)
Ellesmere
Lawrence East
Midland
Scarborough Centre
McCowen


essentially any surface stop. most of those are "indoors", but still provide huge holes for trains to get in and out, which in turn allows for snow and cold inside. It is not odd to see it snowing inside stations such as Yorkdale.

Never mind other stops with large open air entrances to the street or that are close to tunnel exists that are often well below 0 degrees, if not snowing. People will wait an average of 1 minute and 30 seconds for their train on the LRT lines, provided you brought a coat, hat, and some mitts, I think any sane person could easily withstand even the maximum amount of time of 3 minutes. Even then, concerns could easily be solved by having indoor waiting areas like on the VIVA busways.
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You can St. Clair to that list. It may be underground, but the station can be quite chilly in the winter.
 
To me it seems that the strongest support for putting in subways over LRT comes from motorists. They don't want anything to interfere with getting to their destination, ever.
ksun said:
This.
The need to wait for traffic lights and more importantly tight spacing is why I am lukewarm about the LRT (and transitcity for that matter). We need rapid transit, and Eglinton in my understanding, will not be rapid.
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If you need to get somewhere fast, take a cab. To me it's more important that transit is consistent. Most of the time, before and after riding the subway I also take a bus or streetcar, so saving 3 minutes on a subway ride doesn't matter much because you then need to wait for a bus to complete the route. It doesn't really matter much if the subway (or LRT) portion takes 31 or 36 minutes. You have to account for the extra time for the bus/streetcar before you start the commute.

If you're using public transit and in a hurry you will usually end up disappointed, stressed out - and late.
 
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ssiguy2 said:
Eglinton has far too many stations especially considering it is not a downtown route and there is limited options for high TOD due to the street already being nearly filled out. It should be grade separated using elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy so the trains can run more frequently, have higher capacity, be cheaper to run due to automation, and be far more reliable. Even one little bottleneck along any at grade section brings the entire system to a screetching halt. A transit line is only as dependable as it's weakest link.
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Eglinton except for the central area is more like McCowan in Scarborough while planners pretend it is more like Queen West or some dense European avenue.
800-1000m spacing should be appropriate, not 400-500 m. Toronto transits usually make the mistake of too tight spacing. downtown street cars are a good example. Downtown is dense, but not nearly dense enough to warrant 200 meter (sometimes even less!) spacing between stops.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I don't think enclosing the stations is that big a deal if the trains run every 2 or 3 minutes. Toronto isn't that cold but a small enclosed area like Calgary's CTrain or Winnipeg's RT would be a welcome respite in January.

Eglinton has far too many stations especially considering it is not a downtown route and there is limited options for high TOD due to the street already being nearly filled out. It should be grade separated using elevation from Don Mills to Kennedy so the trains can run more frequently, have higher capacity, be cheaper to run due to automation, and be far more reliable. Even one little bottleneck along any at grade section brings the entire system to a screetching halt. A transit line is only as dependable as it's weakest link.
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From what I understand, there are tracks that allow switching tracks, so I don't see how one problem would bring the whole system to a "screetching halt". It would be similar to the subway currently works with delays & station closures, some parts would shut down while others run, I would assume.
 
The Golem said:
To me it seems that the strongest support for putting in subways over LRT comes from motorists. They don't want anything to interfere with getting to their destination, ever.

If you need to get somewhere fast, take a cab. To me it's more important that transit is consistent. Most of the time, before and after riding the subway I also take a bus or streetcar, so saving 3 minutes on a subway ride doesn't matter much because you then need to wait for a bus to complete the route. It doesn't really matter much if the subway (or LRT) portion takes 31 or 36 minutes. You have to account for the extra time for the bus/streetcar before you start the commute.

If you're using public transit and in a hurry you will usually end up disappointed, stressed out - and late.
Click to expand...

Yeah immunity to traffic is the big win. If you travel by car, bus or streetcar, traffic can cause a huge delay, and it's not fun sitting or standing in traffic in any of those vehicles.

Of course, subways also have delays due to passenger alarm, signal issues etc. If you think a LRV stopping for one traffic cycle at a red light is the end of the world, the subway at rush hour must be full of apocalyptic moments.

As long as your vehicle (whatever it may be) continues moving steadily with only occasional short stops, you feel like you're making progress. The worst part of the trip is waiting for the vehicle since you feel like you're wasting your time.
 
innsertnamehere said:
I wouldn't call this "Built out", far from it.

I really think people need a bit of a reality check in terms of where the surface portion is running, it isn't exactly a superdense medieval european city. There are 16 lights on the entire route, 9 of which will barely, if at all effect the LRT because of them being low volume and only existing to allow for the traffic to make left turns onto the street. (which of course means that they can be delayed a bit to allow for an LRT across the light without major traffic imacts) At most you will have maybe a 30 second deviance in travel times along the stretch, something that can easily be changed by going a little slower or faster once entering the tunnel.
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+1 thank you. The central section is fairly urban however, similar to the Danforth or St Clair West. It's all due to the history of the neighbourhood, the pre-war section is the middle section. You can see it in the architecture.
 
ksun said:
Eglinton except for the central area is more like McCowan in Scarborough while planners pretend it is more like Queen West or some dense European avenue.
800-1000m spacing should be appropriate, not 400-500 m. Toronto transits usually make the mistake of too tight spacing. downtown street cars are a good example. Downtown is dense, but not nearly dense enough to warrant 200 meter (sometimes even less!) spacing between stops.
Click to expand...

If you space out the stops, then you have to run a parallel bus service to pick up those people who are in between stations - much as is already done on the Yonge Line. Is that really an effective use of resources?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
ksun said:
This.
The need to wait for traffic lights and more importantly tight spacing is why I am lukewarm about the LRT (and transitcity for that matter). We need rapid transit, and Eglinton in my understanding, will not be rapid. I have never seen another city with equally tight spacing between subway stations, not to mention our streetcars. Paris with several times of our density doesn't seem to space their stations that tight.
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Both the underground and ROW portions of Eglinton are rapid. The ROW only adds another 4 minutes to the trip from Don Mills to Kennedy compared to if it were a subway. And the ROW may actually be about as fast as our downtown rapid transit, given the amount of stations.

And also, I am not in favour of a system where people will wait in the open or semi open stations for a train to arrive, considering how cold and long our winters are. The stations have to be fully enclosed and heated in the winter. Otherwise, it is a NO for me as it reduces the comfort dramatically and will force people to drive a car instead.
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None of our stations our heated. A huge amount of our stations are outdoors. If you don't like the cold then move.
 
This may be the wrong thread, but is there any discussions to revisit the merits of Transit City after the grotesque mayor of Toronto is disposed?

I also hate that man for turning the transit debate into LRT vs. Subways. There is need for both in Toronto. The TTC employs many excellent transportation engineers and planners. Let them do their jobs on what's the most feasible, efficient and cost effective options then the politicians can tweak and decide what to implement. Having the politicians draw transit lines on a map and then ask the engineers and planners to implement it is really putting the cart before the horse...

and I hope Sheppard subway doesn't see another dime until ridership is at a level to justify its existence. /rant
 
Johnny Au said:
The only heating comes from our bodies.
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In the Toronto area, one has to go down 1.21 m to get past the frost depth.

However, if you do get down deep enough, the temperatures do start to go up closer to the core. Which is why using heat pumps to heat the outdoor platforms (at least to +4°C) maybe enough to melt any snow that falls on them.
 
LRT would be great for Toronto's lower density areas right now, however I'm of the opinion that most of the lines would become overcrowded in a relatively short period as density increases. Subway is more expensive to build, and most areas that aren't currently served by subways don't have the density to justify it yet, but as we've seen by the "T" formation around Yonge-Bloor, subway lines attract high density development and economic growth more than any other system, and it's much easier to increase frequency on subway lines than LRT.
 
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