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Deletion of the post has nothing to do with the position taken WRT the debate. A permabanned member is a permabanned member and efforts to circumvent that through multple signups is not appreciated.
 
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Tewder said:
Sarc on the other hand many Toronto urbanites, who we would expect to favour such things (as they tend to do in other cities), are often more inclined to be of a 'bread not circuses' bent... which is maybe just a newer, 'cooler' incarnation of Toronto dowdiness?
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I think that's a reflexive response to what is obviously an inferiority complex that this city suffers from. It's like when people say something like "he might be rich, but I'm happy". I mean, sure, but wouldn't it be even better to have both? After all, having one doesn't preclude having the other.

A lot of Torontonians, seizing the fact that we're a very vibrant place latch on to the idea that in order to have vibrancy you need ugliness. Of course this is totally false.
 
I must agree that the Tim Horton culture is quite prominent in Toronto. Not so much in Montreal.
 
Hipster Duck said:
I think that's a reflexive response to what is obviously an inferiority complex that this city suffers from. It's like when people say something like "he might be rich, but I'm happy". I mean, sure, but wouldn't it be even better to have both? After all, having one doesn't preclude having the other.

A lot of Torontonians, seizing the fact that we're a very vibrant place latch on to the idea that in order to have vibrancy you need ugliness. Of course this is totally false.
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I don't follow. Since when did the notion of vibrancy become dependent upon ugliness? It's not as though the tourism ministry is running around making the city look disheveled in order to make it seem hip. Postering happens because people with low budgets need to get word out on the cheap in a way that speaks to their audience. It must work too, or it wouldn't be so prevalent. And graffiti, well that just happens, those of you who don't like it can join Rob Ford in the good fight.
 
Tewder said:
... on the other hand many Toronto urbanites, who we would expect to favour such things (as they tend to do in other cities), are often more inclined to be of a 'bread not circuses' bent... which is maybe just a newer, 'cooler' incarnation of Toronto dowdiness?
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Well, yeah. Montreal had Expo and the Olympics. Toronto has critical-mass opposition to Expo and the Olympics.
 
Frank Godfrey said:
This thread become just another forum for bashing Toronto. What a load of bunk !
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Perhaps another way to look at it is that anybody who bothers to read this forum and post on it cares about Toronto and wishes it well, but reasonable people can question whether the city is living up to the potential of its residents and institutions. Reasonable people can certainly differ on an esthetic question like whether Toronto is beautiful. The question is important, but the criteria for answering it will never be data-driven. Simply dismissing the opinions of the "not so much" camp as mindless Toronto-bashing pretty much guarantees nobody will ever dare to discuss how to improve the city, because to say anything less-than-boosterish about the place guarantees a defensive and aggrieved response. A reasonable take on the "not beautiful" posts, including mine, is simply that people are saying many other developed world cities appear to design, build and maintain their public realms better than Toronto, and we might learn something from them. Saying that we could become something a lot better than we are today based on examples from other cities is hardly bunk.
 
adma said:
Well, yeah. Montreal had Expo and the Olympics. Toronto has critical-mass opposition to Expo and the Olympics.
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... and far more subtle than that: In Toronto you'd be bashed for suggesting the city spend some funds to plant some flowers (or repair sidewalks or take down poles or...) all the while there's a homeless person laying on a grate somewhere. Our tattiness is politicized, in other words. This too is the exact opposite of what you'd find in Montreal where to not plant flowers or maintain the public realm to certain levels would likely foment the urban crowds.

I'm not bashing Toronto, by the way. I see it as a critical difference, and the critical difference that results in our grubby, beauty-challenged city.
 
It has very little to do with that cultural difference, in my opinion. Toronto is a huge expanding city with very high maintenance costs which is constantly seeing investment of all kinds go its way. Since Toronto needs to heavily subsidise its suburbs and the rest of Ontario, it operates with much less financial freedom than it should.

Montreal, Quebec City, or Ottawa are not growing at any similar rate. They take the money we are spending on completely rebuilding our waterfront, adding transit capacity, etc. and put it down for city beautification and upkeep. Even then, they can only afford to keep their cities beautiful in the very core.

Montreal looks like this as much as anything:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=montr...=uGSS0sdxKy1Dn6Oi7Jnpog&cbp=12,20.22,,0,-4.04

Or this:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=montr...d=GUzwqlRJSgsTU2Zv9ueNfg&cbp=12,126.2,,0,-0.1

Downtown Toronto will be 'beautified'. It's just a matter of time. It will take longer because many parts of downtown Toronto haven't been lived in for so long, but it will happen, and no Tim Horton's culture is going to get in the way.
 
RC8 said:
It has very little to do with that cultural difference, in my opinion. Toronto is a huge expanding city with very high maintenance costs which is constantly seeing investment of all kinds go its way. Since Toronto needs to heavily subsidise its suburbs and the rest of Ontario, it operates with much less financial freedom than it should.
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I agree that there is a funding issue, but I'm not sure that more funds would change the situation all that much... which is why I come back to the cultural thing and how it is politicized (in terms of spending/funding). Again, unlike in many other cities, it is somewhat ingrained in Toronto urbanites to reject spending on 'city beautiful' issues as frivolous and unethical all the while there is social need... and not just city-beautiful issues but other things like heritage preservation, the arts and 'circuses'. Like it or not, Toronto urbanism is 'sensible shoes' not Montreal chic... and no offense but birkenstocks just aren't beautiful.

RC8 said:
Montreal, Quebec City, or Ottawa are not growing at any similar rate. They take the money we are spending on completely rebuilding our waterfront, adding transit capacity, etc. and put it down for city beautification and upkeep. Even then, they can only afford to keep their cities beautiful in the very core.

Montreal looks like this as much as anything:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=montr...=uGSS0sdxKy1Dn6Oi7Jnpog&cbp=12,20.22,,0,-4.04

Or this:
https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=montr...d=GUzwqlRJSgsTU2Zv9ueNfg&cbp=12,126.2,,0,-0.1.
Click to expand...

I find the above excuses to be quite hollow. All cities have fiscal challenges, and in fact most have been far more hard-hit by the current recession than Toronto. Many cities make due with less, however, which tells me that there is something going on in Toronto that is above and beyond simple dollars and cents...

... and yes, you can post unattractive pictures of Montreal, or average ones at least, but that's not really the point. Nobody is suggesting any city should be beautiful everywhere. As has been said before you can even find ugly or prosaic areas in Paris.

RC8 said:
Downtown Toronto will be 'beautified'. It's just a matter of time. It will take longer because many parts of downtown Toronto haven't been lived in for so long, but it will happen, and no Tim Horton's culture is going to get in the way.
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I would agree that small improvements are happening, but the struggle has been a very up-hill one. My point all along has been to question how much of a lobby for 'city beautiful' there is in Toronto. Perhaps with the condo boom, along with more people migrating into downtown, this lobby will continue to grow.
 
I don't know how Montreal came in this discussion but outside of the Old Montreal area i wouldn't exactly call it a beautiful city. Yes it does maintain it's public squares a lot better. However, using St-Catherines Street as an example, i would call it average looking at best. However, it's the little things that count, like the many small plants and flowers that wrap around the light poles on streets. What Montreal and Ottawa do a lot better then Toronto is the lighting of their historic buildings. There's too many historic buildings in Toronto that are left in the dark when the sun goes down.
 
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