[k10ery]

The $650M was just the upper end of drum's range - I have no facts of my own here.

But your way sounds more reasonable. With the densities that exist in our inner suburbs, I think only at grade transit can make financial sense.

 

[Dan416]

I do not know where you got that cost from, but here is what I am thinking.

The options are to build a mobility hub at Kipling or at Honeydale mall (East Mall). So essentially, no cost difference - both would be in the $100M to $200M range. The cost to built an at-grade extension from Kipling to East Mall is probably in the range of $100M to $200M. This is a pretty small cost, to benefit many riders, both from Toronto and Mississauaga, coming in from bus from the north and west.

I actually think this is one of the most important subway extensions in Toronto since it will help show that TTC can build a reasobably priced subway, and not spend $300M + per km even when going through vacant fields. It also has the ability to have another juridiction share in some of the costs.

There would still be space to the West to tunnel under the Milton GO and 427 in the future if needed, but that is a much larger cost that need not be incurred at this time. Tunnelling one station at a time is bad strategy, building one station at a time at grade is very logical.

You honestly think Mississauga would contribute to extending the subway to Honeydale or Cloverdale? Think again. Unless there's some other jurisdiction you're referring to that I can't think of.

Asking Mississauga to pay for a subway that enters its territory is fair. Asking it to pay for something that is still fully within the 416 (and really, nowhere near the border) borders on ridiculous. I think they wanted Mississauga to pitch in for the interregional bus terminal, which they may do since they use it, but I'm not sure if that was ever agreed to.

But yeah this kind of subway extension would get 0 help from Mississauga, sorry, it just won't. It doesn't come close to breaching the border.

 

[drum118]

Up to $650 million to move a few thousand riders from bus to subway, for 5 mins of their trip? No way that passes the cost benefit test, sorry.

What few 1,000's and where do you get it from?

MT brings in 25,000+ on weekdays to the point it supplied over 50% of the ridership at Islington. TTC is on the recorder saying this.

If you add on to that number all of TTC routes going west of Kipling, along with the plan development for the Cloverdale site, you got over 50,000 riders using this new station. This does not include GO riders, YRT riders as well Brampton.

At the same time, it will save TTC millions in cost saving on fuel, labour, wear & tear, maintenance, better headway to the point you maybe able to cut a bus or 2 from various routes or increase service levels.

How many cars will not being using Dundas between the new station and Kipling/Islington now?? What does that do to traffic along Dundas/Bloor now?

Need to look at the "WHOLE/BIG" picture to may your comment mean something.

 

[k10ery]

^Kipling's daily ridership is 50K in both directions. Unless they are all coming from the 427 and points west, I don't see how your claims can be right.

 

[drum118]

^Kipling's daily ridership is 50K in both directions. Unless they are all coming from the 427 and points west, I don't see how your claims can be right.

If all TTC routes other the Kipling routes 45/46/44 along with 49 & 30 move to the Cloverdale area, what do those route generate?

Some riders for MT get off at Kipling, but the bulk gets off at Islington. It has been stated at TTC meetings about 500 people work in the Islington area that come in by MT.

I don't have or seen any current numbers for MT routes and going from what I last saw and that years ago: 1/1C=15,000, 3=10,000, 26/76=18,000, 20=7,500. I have no info as to 109, 11, 57 and others routes for MT.

The one development for Cloverdale calls for 15,000 units. You got to add those numbers to the batch.

There is no real number for the other systems and guess numbers at this time.

You need also to include riders getting off GO at Kipling for the Kipling total count. Never seen a count for Kipling and GO doesn't like giving numbers out for stations in the first place. Then you need to add/subtract the number of riders coming in by car and the bulk of them will relocate to Cloverdale when it came on line. You maybe lucky to see 20% of the current ridership using Kipling if Cloverdale gets built.

TTC did have at one time a web page showing all the routes ridership/miles/trips/hours/cost and the cost ratio for each route, but gone from the current site. You could easy get the total number of riders from that list.
http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership.jsp

The last number for Kipling for 2009/10 was 53,640. Islington was 43,090. Looking at the new list, about 18,000 would move to Cloverdale for TTC. Add 24,000 for MT and you have 42,000. Add 15,000 for Cloverdale, you got 59,000 and close to what I stated. 57,000 is more than a few 1,000's riders you claim. Now backup your claim. http://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway ridership 2009-2010.pdf. Now, what we don't know is how many of those Kipling riders would travel to Cloverdale to catch one of the buses there to get to/from where they are going that comes out of Kipling today.

Even if you divide by 2, it 28,500 and still more than a few 1,000's.

 

[k10ery]

OK. The TTC has released subway ridership for 2011-12 by the way. Interestingly, ridership at Islington and Kipling are down about 5% since the 2009-10 numbers you posted. Is that due to renovations?

You threw a lot of numbers out, and you obviously know them better than me. For what it's worth, the Dundas BRT study puts 2021 peak hour demand in the Hurontario-Kipling corridor at 1,500. That's what led me to say "a few thousand".

 

[Dan416]

There was a Dundas BRT study? I don't recall Mississauga Transit doing such a study? Maybe I just forgot because we already have the Mississauga BRT under construction and they kinda are parallel anyway.

 

[drum118]

OK. The TTC has released subway ridership for 2011-12 by the way. Interestingly, ridership at Islington and Kipling are down about 5% since the 2009-10 numbers you posted. Is that due to renovations?

You threw a lot of numbers out, and you obviously know them better than me. For what it's worth, the Dundas BRT study puts 2021 peak hour demand in the Hurontario-Kipling corridor at 1,500. That's what led me to say "a few thousand".

I have not answer to the decrease since I have never looked at it. Need to see what the ridership numbers look like for the various routes to see where the changes are taking place.

Those numbers are low for 2021 for the BRT, especially if it is now going to run to Burlington.

There is a big different between peak time and daily numbers when looking at the big picture. You need to compare apples to apples not the apple-oranges like you have done.

You only allow for one route when the current route is service by many routes and that need to be taken into consideration for the Cloverdale station, even if it only peak time.

If you use $30 per bus trip that a TTC bus goes west from Kipling and multiply it by 5.5, that is what TTC will save in operation cost weekly. Multiply that by 49 and you will get the yearly saving.

If you do the same thing for MT routes at $35 that does not include routes 1, 3, 20, 26 and 76, you will see what MT will save in operation cost.

Route 3 will take over TTC route 49 and terminate at Kipling. Will require a subsidy from TTC to cover the lost to carry TTC riders, but TTC will save on placing route 49 buses elsewhere.

Route 1 will follow the current route, but will pickup and drop off TTC riders.

Route 20, 26 and 76 will take over TTC route 50. TTC will walk away with 3 buses to be use elsewhere as well a saving of $1m in operation cost. My business case for this was done in 2005 and Metrolinx support it, but can't force TTC to do it. Still waiting for a report from TTC staff to my presentation in 2005/08, but don't expect to see one.

 

[drum118]

OK. The TTC has released subway ridership for 2011-12 by the way. Interestingly, ridership at Islington and Kipling are down about 5% since the 2009-10 numbers you posted. Is that due to renovations?

You threw a lot of numbers out, and you obviously know them better than me. For what it's worth, the Dundas BRT study puts 2021 peak hour demand in the Hurontario-Kipling corridor at 1,500. That's what led me to say "a few thousand".

I have not answer to the decrease since I have never looked at it. Need to see what the ridership numbers look like for the various routes to see where the changes are taking place.

Those numbers are low for 2021 for the BRT, especially if it is now going to run to Burlington.

There is a big different between peak time and daily numbers when looking at the big picture. You need to compare apples to apples not the apple-oranges like you have done.

You only allow for one route when the current route is service by many routes and that need to be taken into consideration for the Cloverdale station, even if it only peak time.

If you use $30 per bus trip that a TTC bus goes west from Kipling and multiply it by 5.5, that is what TTC will save in operation cost weekly. Multiply that by 49 and you will get the yearly saving.

If you do the same thing for MT routes at $35 that does not include routes 1, 3, 20, 26 and 76, you will see what MT will save in operation cost.

Route 3 will take over TTC route 49 and terminate at Kipling. Will require a subsidy from TTC to cover the lost to carry TTC riders, but TTC will save on placing route 49 buses elsewhere.

Route 1 will follow the current route, but will pickup and drop off TTC riders.

Route 20, 26 and 76 will take over TTC route 50. TTC will walk away with 3 buses to be use elsewhere as well a saving of $1m in operation cost. My business case for this was done in 2005 and Metrolinx support it, but can't force TTC to do it. Still waiting for a report from TTC staff to my presentation in 2005/08, but don't expect to see one.

 

[drum118]

Time to get your final photos of the current terminal

Going to be a fun time for MT riders until the Kipling Station when every it get built. Even TTC Riders will have fun until this is done.

 

[sixrings]

Time to get your final photos of the current terminal

Going to be a fun time for MT riders until the Kipling Station when every it get built. Even TTC Riders will have fun until this is done.

Seems like they should have extended the Subway one stop west and build the new station and bus terminal together..

 

[doady]

East Mall really is the optimal location for a terminus of the Bloor subway. Too bad it will probably never happen in our lifetimes.

 

[gweed123]

East Mall really is the optimal location for a terminus of the Bloor subway. Too bad it will probably never happen in our lifetimes.

I made a post in the DRL thread yesterday about an idea that may work: Run the DRL along Donlands and use the Greenwood yard for the DRL. Then build an integrated subway terminus, bus terminal, and yard on the site of Honeydale Mall and the adjacent buildings.

Tying it in with the DRL may be a good way to get this extension built.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The TTC could always buy a spot along the Scarborough subway as well and build a new B-D yard there.

 

[gweed123]

The TTC could always buy a spot along the Scarborough subway as well and build a new B-D yard there.

That's true. I'd much rather the expense of a new yard come with some kind of service improvement/extension though.