IanO
Superstar
Yup, we do.
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- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
archited
Senior Member
No we don't!
Airboy
Senior Member
As much as I agree with you, I cannot see closing Jasper Ave down for a year. This years construction season was good. last years not so much. I was involved with the Ft Ed park utility upgrade (Shallow Utility inspection). That made sense to close but its controlled and no public. Hawreluk Park will be way different. I don't think the public will allow it to be closed. As for Jasper Ave. Maybe they can do a longer section instead of breaking it up. Plan for multiple crews working. They Kinda did that this year now they can push the rebuilding.
kcantor
Senior Member
that might have worked if 101a was still a through street or if 102 avenue wasn't closed down for lrt or if 103 as a through street or if 103a/104 wasn't closed as much as it's open for ice district and lrt construction and if half or more of the north south connecters weren't also closed or severely restricted as well.
how we manage to avoid a major catastrophe other than relying on dumb luck never ceases to amaze me.
Macroman520
New Member
If we had a robust transit system serving Jasper Avenue and the surrounding areas, then road traffic would likely decrease substantially. 102 and 100 Avenues do not run the length of the built-up areas around downtown.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
We definitely don't, Ian. Jasper as a thoroughfare might still work now, but if we ever get to the density you talk so much about, it will be complete and absolute CHAOS, planning the downtown traffic around Jasper as an east-west people mover.Yup, we do.
Makes A LOT more sense think of 104, 107 and 111 avenues as these big connectors, with a few streets, like 95, 97, 101, 109 and 116 streets, linking directly to the core.
What we need is a main street that is not a bloody stroad, not a highway disguised as a street that serves none of the objectives well enough to please everyone (and that ends up pissing everybody off). Right now 100% of the people are not satisfied with Jasper: people who drive downtown think it has too few lanes and speeds are to low. People who live and walk around the area think the exact opposite. Businesses are not too happy either. People who come (the very few and far between) to downtown for leisure don't like it either, because it's unattractive (and back to businesses being hurt). If we stick to one side of the thing, either a main road or a main street, we'll get at least PART of the people to actually like it. Either we make it an 8 lane, 60km/h major thoroughfare (and deal the killing blow to Downtown) or we prioritize a pedestrian and transit oriented street that will be better for businesses and for the general long-term health of the whole urban fabric of Edmonton.
IanO
Superstar
It's multi-modal as is with cars, bikes, buses (FNA trolleys), pedestrians, LRT and scooters.
The composition/cross-section does not really matter if you don't reasons to go there. We don't have a highway there, we have a lack of stores, destinations and reasons to stroll.
Whyte makes it sorta work on the north side of the street with a very, very similar composition.
The hard reality is that most people prefer enclosed malls and big boxed things.
The composition/cross-section does not really matter if you don't reasons to go there. We don't have a highway there, we have a lack of stores, destinations and reasons to stroll.
Whyte makes it sorta work on the north side of the street with a very, very similar composition.
The hard reality is that most people prefer enclosed malls and big boxed things.
archited
Senior Member
^^^^ You continue to make suppositions that are not at all supported by facts. I guess we could say that you live in your own head. We should not be planning for today -- we should be planning for tomorrow.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I can point out so many wrong assumptions here that it's actually scary. For someone who can be quite insightful, when it comes to Jasper Ave (for some reason) you're particularly attached to preconceived ideas that lack the long-term component.
1 - A multimodal street is different from a stroad; the former has all of its modes at the same level of priority, which is what Jasper could be if we had protected bike lanes, dedicated bus lanes, narrower car lanes that are compatible with people, bikes, transit and car are at the same priority level. The later is a deadly and terrible combination of a thoroughfare though to move a high number of cars from point A to B as fast as possible, with elements of retail/office space that are very hostile to people and are better served by cars.
2 - Whyte has one thing Jasper doesn't: congestion caused by the intersection with Gateway Blvd and Calgary Trail, and the lanes a little bit narrower, both of which lower speeds considerably, adding to pedestrian safety and comfort.. It also has more destinations and the whole Old Strathcona was though to support such an environment, adding in that there's barely any comercial activity in the perpendicular streets, concentrating it on Whyte and making it busier, whereas Downtown has things spread out.
3 - I REALLY don't believe that Edmontonians are so different from any other North Americans out there and, specifically Canadians. If it was true that people here like big-box and enclosed malls that much more than street shopping, people wouldn't fill the streets of Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, even Calgary (and hell, Edmonton and Calgary are MUCH more similar than any of us like to admit, culturally speaking) regardless of the weather. Yes, it is true that Edmonton is colder than those cities, but we get less snow than Montreal, less rain than Vancouver and we're just marginally colder than Calgary. Also, we can get big box stores to downtown, if you want to go there, but according to you, we don't have the density (but I'm guessing Allard has).
4 - As Ted said, the whole idea of planning is looking for the future, not just present. You keep talking about the need to increase density in the Downtown core, but if we do, we need to start thinking the streets there for the residents AND to be more attractive to people and businesses.
Gronk!
Senior Member
Jasper Ave from 100 St to 96 St
The sidewalk east of 97 St has not been touched
Greenery from last year's construction is starting to bloom
The sidewalk east of 97 St has not been touched
Greenery from last year's construction is starting to bloom
Gronk!
Senior Member
100 St construction - laying in a median
Gronk!
Senior Member
97 St construction
IanO
Superstar
0 - purposeful
1-That's A LOT of assumptions, assertions and desire to go to Buffett Royal to put maple syrup on your chocolate chip salad. Sometimes it's best to opt for the pork chop sans demi glace.
2-Do you want to hangout at either spot for much time? It's the in between and mid-blocks that should be what we are aiming for. Excuses for excuses; I like it!
3-To that I would agree. Problem is, we don't have enough of the other folks here... and so we are and will be just as I said... 2-3-9 lanes or not.
D-What's attractive to a business, lessor, lessee, broker, investor? Traffic counts or urbanist folklore?
Why put everything for everyone right there when we can do that on 102ave and differentiate use, need and purpose?
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Edmcowboy11
Senior Member
I'm impressed with what has been done at Jasper and 97st. I look forward to see the final product. Especially if the Harbin Gate is going there it appears that it will be very much made as a focal point.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
First: most of us don't speak Ian, please, please write it in a way that doesn't make a Rosetta stone needed... helps a lot with the discussions
I can go on this back-and-forth for days, but it gets exhausting when I spend 20 minutes trying to figure what you meant with the replies.Second: I have to agree with Ted, you seem to have an underlying car fetish that you're just not brave enough to admit here. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone suggests a significant change to one of our main "corridors" you're the first to pick up your pitchfork and march to the Mike Nickel drums. Wanna pedestrianize Jasper? No... but the cars... Whyte Ave? No... but the cars... 104 Ave? No... but the cars...124 street? No... But the cars... Wanna put bike lanes on 109 St? No... But the cars... And your solution is always the same: pick a secondary, parallel street, and do it there, even though it's going to be pointless, because if people wanted to be there, THEY WOULD BE THE MAJOR STREETS.
Also, how can we expect to make good advances in the mid-blocks and in between streets if we can't even get our mains street right? Because as nice as it looks (and incomplete, and slow to build...) What they did to Jasper Ave was putting lipstick on a pig and calling it Monique... It sure looks nice and shiny now, but won't do ANYTHING for the walkability and desirability and certainly won't help make Jasper a destination.
And answering your questions:
a) What's attractive to businesses, in general, but particularly for small retail and hospitality, which are the bread and butter of any healthy downtown? Foot traffic, nice, safe and comfortable streets, good access (for all modes of transportation, not just cars) visibility from the street, etc... Guess what is PROVEN to work for that, all around the world: pleasant, interesting streets, with trees, wide sidewalks, proper space for patios, street art, pocket parks, bike lanes and the pairing bike racks, reliable and comfortable transit options, slower moving vehicles... Oh, it also helps if you bring in what people want to buy, unless it's a completely crazy idea, eh?! Maybe there's another reason why some cities have big box stores in their downtowns (and some even on main streets... Think Nordstrom Rack on Yonge and Bloor)...
This has worked in cities everywhere: New York, Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Vancouver, Halifax, Toronto (are those not cities with similar cultural backgrounds, as is most of North America?), most cities in the Netherlands (even small ones, mind you), Oslo, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Paris, Munich, Frankfurt, Cape Town, Manila, Buenos Aires, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Santiago, Mexico City, London, Manchester... It's not anecdotal, Ian, if it works on so many different places, it should work here, so please answer me: WHY is Edmonton so peculiar and should not follow on the footsteps of places that were successful (even if it is on it's own way, using inventive solutions)? Should we become a case study for what a city completely different from all others in the world? Maybe Edmonton exists in a parallel reality... I frankly don't know
b) because 102 Avenue is NOT our main street, Jasper is. Imagine if the folks in NYC decided to think this way about 5th ave? Or Toronto with Yonge Street?
What is your idea? Have Jasper become a high flux route? Why not rip the whole downtown apart and build freeways everywhere, instead. Maybe, in the process, we can beg for a main street that actually looks and serves as one be constructed, even if it's a tiny little one...