H
Hydrogen
Guest
^^I'm sympathetic to what you are saying, but I did experience two booze-fueled hockey riots while living in downtown Montreal.
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- Thread starter jaycola
- Start date
Tewder
Senior Member
Measuring 'Joy' seems ridiculous to me. Lets just hand out free anti-depressants to everybody and we'll be sure to be #1 on the list...
To me it's more about a city's energy/vibe. Toronto's is a little on the phlegmatic 'meh' side, right across the board and from bottom to top. This is what I think holds the city back. I love Toronto because it is familiar to me and I know it intimately but if Toronto were a character in musical theatre it would be singing 'Mr. Cellophane'. I don't know how you change that but I don't think it has always been this way, previous generations seemed far more ambitious and optimistic. Then again, maybe previous generations always seem that way?
To me it's more about a city's energy/vibe. Toronto's is a little on the phlegmatic 'meh' side, right across the board and from bottom to top. This is what I think holds the city back. I love Toronto because it is familiar to me and I know it intimately but if Toronto were a character in musical theatre it would be singing 'Mr. Cellophane'. I don't know how you change that but I don't think it has always been this way, previous generations seemed far more ambitious and optimistic. Then again, maybe previous generations always seem that way?
Archivist
Senior Member
My problem is not with an article talking about an absence of "joy", it's the inability to make any meaningful comparisons across cities and time. Was Toronto more "joyful" in the past? Who knows. I suspect we are more joyful right now that we will be a year from now, though.
TO City of Light
Active Member
But then what do we have?????
To joy I would probably add style and grace as a couple of other things in which Toronto hasn't done particularly well. On the other hand parsimony is something of which there is a surplus. I haven't seen the international ranking for these. Can we make a trade???.
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To joy I would probably add style and grace as a couple of other things in which Toronto hasn't done particularly well. On the other hand parsimony is something of which there is a surplus. I haven't seen the international ranking for these. Can we make a trade???.
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Tewder
Senior Member
Well I'm wondering if 'parsimony' or any perceived lack of style may in fact be related to what I mentioned before, which is to say a certain lack of optimism or ambition, or a kind of mind-numbingly safe, politically correct, phlegmatic mood that seems to pervade the city? I truly think Toronto is capable of many good things, and there *are* many good things here, obviously, but that we could be so much more with a different attitude.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
TKTKTK
Senior Member
True, but not for reasons of morality and piousness. Well, not yet.
jaycola
Active Member
Adding Joy to the city
I think we could "loosen up" a lot in this city by instituting a few new laws allowing us to enjoy some simple pleasures people used to enjoy in simpler days.
I'd like to see us allow the drinking of wine in public parks. Maybe during daylight hours and only when accompaning food. I think we used to call them picnics.
I love visiting the summer festivals where the close off a portion of the street to auto traffic. Maybe we could allow people who buy a beer within the closed off area to carry the beer with them while the stroll the festival.
This week, the NFL game in Toronto demonstrated the stark contrast between our enjoyment of "tailgating" where people set up in a parking lot and grill, party and socialize before a game. In Toronto, they set up a sterile banquet tent and sold $8 sandwhiches and beer. This in nothing like the tailgating experiance millions of Americans enjoy every year.
Unfortunately my short list of ideas above all have something to do with alcohol consumption. If any of you have any other ideas, I like you to share.
Maybe in a couple years, the way our inept and mothering city council works, we'll get something other that pre-cooked smog dogs to enjoy on the street.
I can't believe how long it is taking to move forward on such a simple proposal.
I think we could "loosen up" a lot in this city by instituting a few new laws allowing us to enjoy some simple pleasures people used to enjoy in simpler days.
I'd like to see us allow the drinking of wine in public parks. Maybe during daylight hours and only when accompaning food. I think we used to call them picnics.
I love visiting the summer festivals where the close off a portion of the street to auto traffic. Maybe we could allow people who buy a beer within the closed off area to carry the beer with them while the stroll the festival.
This week, the NFL game in Toronto demonstrated the stark contrast between our enjoyment of "tailgating" where people set up in a parking lot and grill, party and socialize before a game. In Toronto, they set up a sterile banquet tent and sold $8 sandwhiches and beer. This in nothing like the tailgating experiance millions of Americans enjoy every year.
Unfortunately my short list of ideas above all have something to do with alcohol consumption. If any of you have any other ideas, I like you to share.
Maybe in a couple years, the way our inept and mothering city council works, we'll get something other that pre-cooked smog dogs to enjoy on the street.
I can't believe how long it is taking to move forward on such a simple proposal.
taal
Senior Member
haha funny ... I had my comment lined up before I finished reading your entire post.
It was going to be along the lines of ... wow anything with more alcohol == good.
but I'm glad you said it first.
We have a lot of festivals in the summer ... a ton! ... most of which close down streets in some manner. Most aren't huge though.
I'll tell you Toronto's problem ... it's not that we don't have enough "joy" that's complete bs ... we're all happy here
Expect for what I'm going to say because it really pisses me off when I think about it:
We have no sense of PRIDE IN THIS F**** CITY ... Honestly ... compared to other cities, it sucks! I think we had it in the 80s (note I wasn't born yet then and on top of that I didn't move / live in Canada until 1990) Back then we were known as Toronto the good ... please someone who's been around longer correct me if I'm wrong! People took pride in that.
Now a days all you here are complaints ... how it would be better elsewhere ... how we can't do anything right. Honestly ... I hate it.
Change that and Toronto would be perfect.
It was going to be along the lines of ... wow anything with more alcohol == good.
but I'm glad you said it first.We have a lot of festivals in the summer ... a ton! ... most of which close down streets in some manner. Most aren't huge though.
I'll tell you Toronto's problem ... it's not that we don't have enough "joy" that's complete bs ... we're all happy here
Expect for what I'm going to say because it really pisses me off when I think about it:
We have no sense of PRIDE IN THIS F**** CITY ... Honestly ... compared to other cities, it sucks! I think we had it in the 80s (note I wasn't born yet then and on top of that I didn't move / live in Canada until 1990) Back then we were known as Toronto the good ... please someone who's been around longer correct me if I'm wrong! People took pride in that.
Now a days all you here are complaints ... how it would be better elsewhere ... how we can't do anything right. Honestly ... I hate it.
Change that and Toronto would be perfect.
gei
Active Member
really doesnt help that all our sports teams are sucking at the moment either
MisterF
Senior Member
Agreed, but alcohol is controlled by the province, not the city. I don't think there's anything the city can do about those laws.
Archivist
Senior Member
I agree completely with the thrust of the previous emails about alcohol rules in Ontario - they are insane. I will add that I think we ought to allow 24 hour bars if there is a market for it - many cities have this. I have often commented that my local watering hole (The Eagle) has a different license on the two floors of the building, so they have different limits and have to control access within the bar. It's appalling. I've commented, and it is true, that it's easier to move between countries in Europe that between floors of a bar in Toronto.
Re: Tailgate parties. I think in this one case, however, it is worth pointing out that however jolly tailgate parties are in the states, they arise because US stadiums almost all stand within many square kilometres of nothing except concrete, and even beyond that, the neighbourhoods are usually sketchy. Within a five minute walk of the SkyDome, however, there a huge number of bars, restaurants, and other options.
Toronto Joy: 1.
All other NA cities Joy: 0
But, really, without a comparison of other cities, this whole argument is pointless. Sure, we have some over-regulation in Toronto, but there is no point bitching about it, or making the case that we are somehow less joyful than other cities, without making comparisons.
Item:
It is really hard to promote the idea that people should get outdoors, be part of their community, go out to the ball game or whatever when we read things like this. At Yankee Stadium, the security guards are confiscating sunscreen. "Five hours in the upper deck with no sunscreen is crazy," said one upper deck seasons ticket holder. Source.
Toronto Joy: 1.
New York Joy: 0.
Re: Tailgate parties. I think in this one case, however, it is worth pointing out that however jolly tailgate parties are in the states, they arise because US stadiums almost all stand within many square kilometres of nothing except concrete, and even beyond that, the neighbourhoods are usually sketchy. Within a five minute walk of the SkyDome, however, there a huge number of bars, restaurants, and other options.
Toronto Joy: 1.
All other NA cities Joy: 0
But, really, without a comparison of other cities, this whole argument is pointless. Sure, we have some over-regulation in Toronto, but there is no point bitching about it, or making the case that we are somehow less joyful than other cities, without making comparisons.
Item:
It is really hard to promote the idea that people should get outdoors, be part of their community, go out to the ball game or whatever when we read things like this. At Yankee Stadium, the security guards are confiscating sunscreen. "Five hours in the upper deck with no sunscreen is crazy," said one upper deck seasons ticket holder. Source.
Toronto Joy: 1.
New York Joy: 0.
androiduk
Senior Member
The more animated and active a city's streets are, the safer they are and the more attractive they are. Go to almost any European city and you can see and feel the difference. The one thing Toronto could do in this respect is loosen up the by-laws around sidewalk cafes. They should allow more of them and stop forcing restaurants to close them down in the winter and allow them to be winterized.
ShonTron
Moderator
I am all for liberalization of some of our remaining Methodist liquor laws, but I completely agree, Archivist. You'll also notice that healthy US cities with downtown stadiums typically do not have a tailgating culture much like Toronto. Even Detroit's downtown has more to offer these days after moving the baseball and football stadiums right to the core to join the hockey arena. There's more nightlife, and before, only Greektown really had any life after dark. Now, I'd say that much of the immediate downtown is relatively safe and somewhat active. I've been to Tigers and Red Wing games, and they don't do too bad, even if giant parking garages are built because no one takes transit (except Transit Windsor's game specials). There's other examples - Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Boston, New York, Chicago, where there isn't the tailgating culture you get like in Orchard Park or Kanata.
Tailgating is a symptom of a failed urban experience, not something to encourage. That's one reason people hated the "NFL Experience" last weekend (and the outrageous ticket prices, and the hurt feelings in Buffalo).
Tailgating is a symptom of a failed urban experience, not something to encourage. That's one reason people hated the "NFL Experience" last weekend (and the outrageous ticket prices, and the hurt feelings in Buffalo).
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I would like some of the commercial zoning laws to be loosened up. We shouldn't distinguish between single-family homes and small scale retail when it comes to zoning. So, If someone wanted to open up a shop in their ground floor they could. Or some of the alleyways downtown could be converted to shopping districts. I know the purpose of zoning laws is to preserve neighborhoods and such, but overly neurotic zoning regimes disproportionately screw small business' that most people seem to think makes a pleasant urban experience.