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I'm using general phrases for any batch processing.

What the City now has (at least for King Street) is a *fixed time frame sequence* as best as I can gather, the intersection signal times are fixed in duration, with any 'priority; having to be a further time division within that fixed parameter. Not considering other dynamic and real-time needs.

Sort of. The signals operate with pre-programmed green times when there is no streetcar around.

If there is a streetcar, the priority system is designed to abandon the normal timings and take whatever actions it has been permitted to take to get the streetcar through faster. The only limitations on the actions are those dictated by the City at the particular intersection (well, that and the amount of data storage space in the signal timer for that particular parameter so technically you can't program more than a 255-second green extension or something). Typically streetcars are permitted to extend the green by up to 30 seconds. At some intersections, signals are only permitted to take certain low-impact actions (such as a short green extension), but is not allowed take other actions such as shortening the green for the cross-street, changing the order of phases, inserting extra phases etc. That way the signal maintains pretty much its 'normal' signal operation even during priority requests. Meanwhile at other intersections such as the high-priority ones I listed above, the priority system is pretty much unrestricted.

I'll try and find the City's actual details and methodology for their King pilot area intersections. There may be magnetic loop sensors that have some input, whether that is time division within fixed frames or actually a dynamic elasticity to stretch and shrink those frames on an input sensing basis is a good question, and layered on that: What input does the TTC now have save for a priority (keyed or not) in the light sequence?

This presentation covers the basic technical elements of the TTC's signal priority system. Basically, there are loop-shaped antennas in the ground which listen for a radio signal from the transponders installed on the bottom of all TTC streetcars and buses. Next time you're walking downtown keep an eye out for a black rectangle in the crosswalk between the streetcar tracks - that's usually the 'cancel' loop for that intersection, which tells the signal that the streetcar has successfully entered the intersection and normal signal operation can resume. There's a corresponding 'call' loop in advance of the intersection that tells the signal that a streetcar is on its way (the signal's actions are based around an estimate of how long it will take the streetcar to get from this loop to the cancel loop).

The timings for signals are sort of quasi-public. You can request any signal's timing from the City, but you have to pay for it to cover the administrative costs. But then again, you could just film the signal for an hour during the time of day you want to figure out, then measure the green times when during a period where there hasn't been a streetcar for a while and there isn't one approaching (i.e. the normal timing), then compare to what the signal does when there is a streetcar that sits there for a long time, maxing out the priority system.

Let me project farther from that: To affect optimal flow and efficiency of the King streetcars will necessitate *over-riding* entire assigned sequences at intersections. This may only be needed for the occasional need to get an interrupted or otherwise out of synch King schedule/headway/interval back onto what is deemed 'optimal'. That would be a dynamic correction, and it adds another depth of control to otherwise limited proactive abilities on King at present, or during the pilot.

I leave it at that until I can get more info on what is extant and what is needed to bring this pilot into the here and now...

The current system already does what you describe, by over-riding the signal timings and synchronization if necessary (and often even when not necessary, given the unpredictability of near-side stops), then getting back into sync after the streetcar leaves. This is known as 'pre-emption', as the City's policy calls it (large PDF). However it does not receive information about the streetcar, such as its route, headway, schedule adherence etc. The signal can calculate the headway, by timing since the last streetcar went through, but this doesn't account for the fact that there are different streetcar routes with different scheduled headways along King. Maybe the compromise would be to grant priority to streetcars with a headway of a least 90 seconds or so. That way streetcars are mostly able to stick to the irregular shape of the schedule, but they are prevented from getting particularly close to each other. This would be a lot like the basic subway block signals, which are always green unless you start to get really close to the train in front (except at timing points, where the signals actually dispatch trains based on the schedule/headaway).
 
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However it does not receive information about the streetcar, such as its route, headway, schedule adherence etc.
And that's crucially needed to achieve the pilot's objective. That's the "dynamic" aspect missing to promote that.

I've just remembered Minnan-Wong's catch-phrase (been driving me crazy trying to remember his "Simon Says" clause): "Benchmarks".
Deputy mayor pushes for clear targets on King St. pilot project that prioritizes streetcars
TTC board approves Denzil Minnan-Wong’s motion to spell out “benchmarks” for closely watched project that will give streetcars priority.

By Ben SpurrTransportation Reporter TorStar
Thu., June 15, 2017

Toronto’s deputy mayor is pushing for the city to set clear targets for the pilot project that would prioritize streetcars over car traffic on King St., in order to prevent its supporters from “declaring victory” without any clear evidence.

As expected, the TTC board voted Thursday to move ahead with the pilot, which would restrict private car movement on King.

With daily ridership of 65,000 people, the 504 King streetcar is the TTC’s busiest surface transit route, but its movement through the downtown core is severely impeded by the 20,000 drivers that use the street every day.

The pilot, which would be installed between Bathurst and Jarvis Sts., will now go to Mayor John Tory’s executive committee next Monday, where it’s expected to be approved and sent to council next month for a final vote.

While endorsing the pilot, commissioners also approved a motion moved by board member Deputy Mayor Denzil Minnan-Wong that asked staff to develop “benchmarks for success” for the project and report to the board by the end of 2017.

Minnan-Wong voted in favour of the pilot. But he argued that, without clear measurements in place at its start, its supporters on council and in the city bureaucracy could simply deem it a success no matter what data comes back.

“You decide what a win looks like before you start. You don’t define the win based on the data that you get,” he said.

“The pilot project is supposed to achieve certain things . . . . Let’s set what those levels are going to be now, and then let’s do the pilot project and see if those things are achieved.”

The motion didn’t specify which benchmarks should be used or how specific the targets should be. Minnan-Wong said he would leave that up to city staff.

TTC chair Josh Colle said staff have already devised several metrics by which to gauge the project. They include its effect on economic activity, traffic, and the reliability of streetcar service.

But Colle said he didn’t object to more clearly laying out the criteria. He stated that he was confident the pilot will be a success, and that the primary measure should be whether transit service improves.

“We have to look at business continuity and safety and all those other things, but, to me, the whole point of all of this is to move those 65,000 people more quickly,” he said.

He rejected the idea that Minnan-Wong’s motion could turn out to be a poison pill that would give critics of the project a chance to sink it if it didn’t meet certain targets.

“If anything, I think the case is going to be so compelling, it will just give further validation to why this was so badly needed.” [...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ilot-project-that-prioritizes-streetcars.html

[(Colle) rejected the idea that Minnan-Wong’s motion could turn out to be a poison pill that would give critics of the project a chance to sink it if it didn’t meet certain targets.

“If anything, I think the case is going to be so compelling, it will just give further validation to why this was so badly needed.”]

I think Colle's optimism is misplaced. Already the terms of the pilot are being eroded, and the goal posts are moving to debase what's necessary to get this 'over the hump'.

Without 'real-time reactive/corrective algorithms' controlling the intersection traffic lights, the design maximum possible has already been achieved, (in exceptional cases) and it's barely good enough, if good-enough at all. The design performance max is capped at the status quo. If this was a 'normal' street and service, that would be acceptable. But the importance of the King car is far beyond 'normal', being the third most busy route for passenger conveyance, and the most busy surface route in Toronto.

That alone demands priorities...well...in a progressive city. And there-in lies the rub.
 
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o get to the other side. Literally, so a transfer to the GO system isn't necessary. RER in through-running tunnels under city cores is now the preferred way of handling the loads, cheaper per passenger moved, vastly faster, more convenient for most and in Toronto's case, funded by the provincial government as part of the GO RER network. See East Side Access, Crossrail, Paris RER and many other examples to find out why. Huge amounts on-line about this, three examples:
I highly doubt that the city of Toronto is going to allow go transit and Metrolinx to put a overpriced go train underneath the city of Toronto when they plan to make the DRL which is exactly waht this is part of the subway network. Just because other places have something you seem to deem as similar doesn't mean we have to build it too.
 
Yeah, know what you mean. Sidewalks are an excellent example. Why do we have to copy everyone else when we don't need them because we can drive everywhere? Absolutely nothing to learn from the Smart Guys...
How do sidwalkscomapried to public transit sytems. Does anyone ever think that the reason people in Toronto don't use go transit often isn't because of proximity to station it's because of the extra cost. Go transit charges more to go one stop then it does to take the TTC anywhere in the city of Toronto. I don't see RER being any different, the only thing I see about RER is adding extra random sations that will delya people coming from outsider of Toronto getting to their location. It isn't likely to add nay local poel as most people can barely justify the price of the TTC why do plel think that they would pay the zone fare of Go trainst to get around the city.
 
And that's crucially needed to achieve the pilot's objective. That's the "dynamic" aspect missing to promote that.
[...]
Without 'real-time reactive/corrective algorithms' controlling the intersection traffic lights, the design maximum possible has already been achieved, (in exceptional cases) and it's barely good enough, if good-enough at all. The design performance max is capped at the status quo. If this was a 'normal' street and service, that would be acceptable. But the importance of the King car is far beyond 'normal', being the third most busy route for passenger conveyance, and the most busy surface route in Toronto.

To be clear, the dynamic aspect (known as Conditional Priority) only serves to turn off priority for streetcars with short headways. It doesn't intrinsically increase priority for late streetcars (though it could theoretically be used as a bargaining chip to justify increased priority). The examples I cited have achieve near-zero delay for streetcars, so I'd definitely say it's 'good enough' given that it's pretty much the best possible situation. Anyway, we're talking about a pilot project set to begin very soon, so we don't have time to move to a different detection technology in time for the Pilot.

The options for conditional priority during the pilot (i.e. with the existing equipment) are:
1. Don't use conditional priority (i.e. status quo)
2. Use a short minimum headway threshold (~90 sec) to prevent streetcars from getting too bunched
3. Use a headway threshold equal to the average combined headway for the three routes to force the streetcars even

Personally I prefer option 2 because it allows better schedule adherence than option 3 (given that they're not scheduled evenly) and allows a high throughput of streetcars in the event there's a backlog. Yet it does a better job of keeping streetcars from bunching too much than option 1.
 
The examples I cited have achieve near-zero delay for streetcars, so I'd definitely say it's 'good enough' given that it's pretty much the best possible situation.
That's a curious claim in light of the need for a project to address abject delays and service for which "you can walk faster than the streetcar moves".

Perhaps you're missing some modifiers or caveats?
 
That's a curious claim in light of the need for a project to address abject delays and service for which "you can walk faster than the streetcar moves".

Perhaps you're missing some modifiers or caveats?

No, the issue is we're talking about completely different things. I was referring to this:
[...] In some cases, streetcars get very strong priority to the point that they are pretty much guaranteed a green (for example Queens Quay & The Crossover, St. Clair & Ferndale, Spadina & Russel, Lakeshore & Humber Loop), while on the other extreme [...]

Regarding the King Street Pilot, there's no need to move to a different priority system, because the pilot itself will be eliminating the main problem with the current setup: the near-side stops.
 
Why not we've has streetcars longer then most of the cities that are putting them in now.

Actually, there are longer streetcars/trams/light rail vehicles elsewhere in the world.


Most also use grass on their right-of-ways.

Toronto's streetcars are limited by the use of loops. The Transit City light rail vehicles will be using either trains or even longer light rail vehicles.
 
The reason the current priority doesn't work that well is that it is not possible to effectively predict when streetcars will wish to proceed through the intersection. Mostly this is due to the near-side stops, which introduce a vast spread of possible travel times through the transit detection zone approaching the signal. So sometimes streetcars spend less time at the signal than estimated, so they're ready to go earlier than the system expects (and so it does nothing), while in other cases streetcars spend more time than expected, in which case the system holds the signal green until its maximum allowable amount, but even then the streetcar is still not ready to go. In this case, the 'priority' system has actually increased the delay to the streetcar because the next green will start later than it would have normally. Relocating the stops to the far-side of the intersections as planned would allow the priority to be more reliably effective than today, since it would become possible predict streetcars' arrival time at the intersection to within a couple seconds. But we can only get that benefit if the City allows the TTC to adjust its priority equipment to reflect the new conditions, rather than insisting it be disabled.

Or you know...Streetcars just wait without boarding or alighting while the light is being held green for them. Happens all the time at Bathurst/King, Dufferin/King based on my experience. I don't take it past Bathurst unfortunately. I think it's mostly because these streetcars don't want to get bunched, but in doing so, they actually deteriorate traffic operations along the entire stretch which in turn creates a vicious cycle of slowing down Streetcars further downstream.
 
Or you know...Streetcars just wait without boarding or alighting while the light is being held green for them. Happens all the time at Bathurst/King, Dufferin/King based on my experience. I don't take it past Bathurst unfortunately. I think it's mostly because these streetcars don't want to get bunched, but in doing so, they actually deteriorate traffic operations along the entire stretch which in turn creates a vicious cycle of slowing down Streetcars further downstream.
Exactly. It's the lack of an *overall* dynamically controlled system that makes that happen. It's a *wasted opportunity* to maximize/optimize flow for everyones benefit. This is the problem with fixed timing frames within which priority is an apportioned segment.

What is necessary is a *dynamically dispatched* over-ride to lights as is given to emergency vehicles at some intersections. (I can't remember if this has been instituted in Toronto or not). On a state of the art traffic control system, the interrupted sequence will reset for what's optimal for the next time frame, the start of which can be moved as opposed to waiting drivers 'missing their turn'. Streetcars 'waiting' at greens will ostensibly not happen save at the other side of the lights, but that occurrence is characteristic of a dispatch algorithm that isn't doing what it should, and like modern rail/subway systems, speeds are imposed by AI to segue headways as much as possible to prevent bunching, stretching or standing to attain the next fixed block of movement.

When the King Pilot was first announced, it was claimed to be 'old stock' CLRVs and ALRVs only running the service. The story has changed (although I can't find where this point hinged) and now the Flexities are being touted to do it. Perhaps, just perhaps...there's a realization that data communications are key to making this work as well as it might considering the other limitations? I just don't see how any performance improvement beyond the already established best "benchmarks" can be had without it. And that right there plays right into the hands of Minnan-Wong.
 
Actually, there are longer streetcars/trams/light rail vehicles elsewhere in the world.


Most also use grass on their right-of-ways.

Toronto's streetcars are limited by the use of loops. The Transit City light rail vehicles will be using either trains or even longer light rail vehicles.
I get that the ones for the LRT lines will be longer but what does this have to do with the king transit project?
 
I get that the ones for the LRT lines will be longer but what does this have to do with the king transit project?

The TTC may have to get even longer streetcars from Alstom, if Bombardier doesn't deliver on time.

The current Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are the same length as two CLRVs or PCCs. We used 2 coupled PCC streetcars as a train on the BLOOR and later the QUEEN streetcar lines.

streetcar-4705-80.jpg

From Transit Toronto, at this link.
 
The TTC may have to get even longer streetcars from Alstom, if Bombardier doesn't deliver on time.

The current Bombardier Flexity Outlook streetcars are the same length as two CLRVs or PCCs.
I'm not sure you have the right topic, why would the TTC put anything longer the the Flexs on to king street or any of the existing network as it is right now they can only fit one of them in a loop at a time. As for t Alstom order that's Metrolinx having no idea what it's doing because of all of the changes to projects but still wanting to stick to the original time line for delivery of vehicle.
 

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