[steveintoronto]

Downtown Yonge Street will be the next major fight at City Hall.

It will be magnitudes easier to make a case for though, as it would be a *pedestrian mall*, not a transit mall. The transit is already underground. And I suspect businesses will for the most part virtually demand the mall, not resist it.

It's folly to think King will set a precedent to follow for other streetcar streets. King is unique in the massive number of passengers it carries. For King, some of the warnings must be heeded in terms of business impact, as at some point, if King is to achieve what it's capable of (a virtual surface subway) pedestrian movement will have to be restricted from off the tracks.

One of the major shortcomings of malls that have been problematic is pedestrian intrusion. It's one of the unspoken aspects of the King Mall that's going to have to be confronted at some point.

An example:

It’s one of the busiest corridors in the city, but Winnipeg transit drivers said that’s not what makes Graham Avenue such a challenge to navigate.

The Graham Avenue Mall, which stretches nine blocks through Downtown Winnipeg, sees 1,800 buses and 100,000 transit users every day.

But drivers say pedestrians running across the street to catch buses, beat the light, or just to get where they’re going a few seconds faster has turned Graham Avenue into a chaotic roadway.


“You watch how many people shoot across,” Tim Bahry said Tuesday, pointing at the Graham and Fort intersection.

Bahry has been driving buses for 17 years, and he said Graham Avenue between Main Street and the Hudson’s Bay store on Vaughan Street may be the trickiest part of his workday.

“You have to keep your eyes open,” Bahry said.”There are people running out to catch buses on your blind side.

“It’s very dangerous.”

But transit drivers aren’t the only ones that noticed the extra traffic.

Most pedestrians stopped by Global News Tuesday said they’re guilty of running across the street or swerving on foot through buses.

A major part of the issue is caused by parallel bus stops located between Fort and Garry Streets. Commuters getting off buses on the north side of the road frequently run across to buses on the south side — or vice versa.

Winnipeg has no jaywalking bylaw. Under the Manitoba Highway Traffic Act, “leaving the curb when not safe” only carries a fine of 113 dollars.

But with no plans to add more barricades, blocks, or to close off Graham Avenue to foot traffic like it is to cars, pedestrians and drivers can expect to see a lot of added stress in the near future.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3860411/...am-avenue-transit-traffic-its-very-dangerous/

Many European and some North Am cities erect fences or hedges to prevent pedestrians doing exactly that. At some point, the dialog has to happen on that for King, or like the Bourke Street Mall, streetcars will be forced to crawl along during Summer crowds with bells and horns clanging and lights flashing at a speed of about 10kph.

 

[BMO]

https://torontoist.com/2018/01/king-street-pilot-sorting-fact-fiction/

Steve Munro's latest.

Great article this quote is interesting

"TTC reports a “25 per cent increase” in ridership, but this refers only to the AM peak hour eastbound at Spadina. This value has been incorrectly cited as indicating an across the board jump in riding, but there are no published data to support this. Escalating claims about the results and using them to bludgeon critics is precisely the kind of selective data reporting this project must avoid to remain credible."

Considering so many on here were quick to blindly take an offhand remark by the TTC Chair without looking at the data. I was highly sceptical that the line could support a 25% increase across the board.

 

[steveintoronto]

Great article this quote is interesting. Considering so many on here were quick to blindly take an offhand remark by the TTC Chair without looking at the data. I was highly sceptical that the line could support a 25% increase across the board.

Yeah...it's become polarized sport fishing on both sides. Munro feels as do I that this could have a serious backlash, a fatal one, unless everyone takes a step back and considers the data.

Still no word on an early release of Moneris figures and analysis. It would immediately allow us to understand to what extent the aggrieved merchants have a point, and how best to address it. Some posters are going to be shocked when it turns out they have been affected. All the more reason to get in front of it now before things become even more reactionary and ultimately counter-productive to seeing this through.

 

[Leo_Chan]

So what is the overall (mean) increase in riders?

 

[steveintoronto]

So what is the overall (mean) increase in riders?

That's the problem, there's not enough verifiable data to show. As Munro points out (you really should read the linked article, he has more to come) that 25% figure was in one direction at one place at one time.

[...]
How Many Riders Are There?

TTC reports a “25 per cent increase” in ridership, but this refers only to the AM peak hour eastbound at Spadina. This value has been incorrectly cited as indicating an across the board jump in riding, but there are no published data to support this. Escalating claims about the results and using them to bludgeon critics is precisely the kind of selective data reporting this project must avoid to remain credible. [...]

https://torontoist.com/2018/01/king-street-pilot-sorting-fact-fiction/

 

[MisterF]

Great article this quote is interesting



Considering so many on here were quick to blindly take an offhand remark by the TTC Chair without looking at the data. I was highly sceptical that the line could support a 25% increase across the board.

It's worth noting that the TTC apparently expects that ridership has grown even more than that since. Which makes sense, given that it takes time for people to change their habits. There's so much pent up demand for east-west travel through downtown that any service improvement brings in new riders in big numbers. That's what makes the city's stubborn prioritizing of suburban rapid transit expansion so frustrating.

A surface streetcar line can handle bigger ridership than King has had up to this point when the streetcars are free of cars blocking the route. No streetcar can handle the demand though, only the DRL coupled with RER can do that.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's so much pent up demand for east-west travel through downtown that any service improvement brings in new riders in big numbers. That's what makes the city's stubborn prioritizing of suburban rapid transit expansion so frustrating.

And it boggles the mind that the City has only appropriated $1.5M for this pilot. That's like sending your kid to school in minus C temperatures with a ragged T-shirt, shorts and sneakers.

What in hell are they thinking? King Street, pilot or not, deserves...*cries out* for a sophisticated state of the art signal and dispatch system that alone *will* achieve the 25% increase and more, much more. Instead of fixing the roof where the rain comes in, they move the furniture around.

 

[BMO]

It's worth noting that the TTC apparently expects that ridership has grown even more than that since. Which makes sense, given that it takes time for people to change their habits. There's so much pent up demand for east-west travel through downtown that any service improvement brings in new riders in big numbers. That's what makes the city's stubborn prioritizing of suburban rapid transit expansion so frustrating.

A surface streetcar line can handle bigger ridership than King has had up to this point when the streetcars are free of cars blocking the route. No streetcar can handle the demand though, only the DRL coupled with RER can do that.

I don't doubt the line has attracted new riders, but there's a theoretical and realistic limit to how many people can be added to a line. I also have my reservations about the quality of TTC's counts which rely on a mixture of Automatic counters on the new LRVs and visual counts for non-LRTs (unless the extrapolate ridership using just the flexities). FYI, based off of working in the industry I know that historically TTC used to just have someone ride the routes periodically and count people getting on or off. Considering baseline data was based on manual counts from CLRVs I'm super skeptical of the authenticity of the results just because of the given methodology wasn't that accurate to begin with. There's a bunch of factors that constrain the line's ability to add riders. I'll admit there's a bunch of numbers I don't quite know, was 25% extra capacity added to the line via better headways or added vehicles? If we have a line that was packed originally I just don't get how you could add an extra 25% to the line unless you add that through extra capacity. A 2-minute savings leaves me skeptical that this is the case (although I'm open to the suggestion that I'm wrong). The only other possibility I can think of is that this stretch of the line (eastbound between Spadina and Yonge) wasn't at-capacity before which I find very hard to believe. So there's a bunch of holes in the data that I would need to be filled before I believe it.

 

[steveintoronto]

was 25% extra capacity added to the line via better headways or added vehicles?

This is a crucial point. The capacity available is actually *less* than early 2017. Munro discusses that point. What it *appears* to be is that the increase is down to purely increased demand expressing itself.

Your point on (gist) 'max theoretical throughput' is also one of Munro's points...but I digress on that one, because again, the context of expressing that is dependent on *present factors*...namely the lack of a sophisticated signalling and dispatch system...and further to that even, a form of automatic vehicle control. CBTC is applicable to streetcars as much as it is to subways, albeit intersections must have clear priority protocols for it to work. More on that later.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does it make sense to add a third track to streetcar lines in order to allow for passing/express cars? (ignoring the fact that this would require a complete rebuild of the streetcar tracks)

 

[nfitz]

I'm frustrated by the #KingStreetPilot. Can someone remind me why we didn't just do streetcar right of way in the left lane and cars in the right? Let them drive the length of King if they want. All that will do is slow down car traffic. Much more efficient. All these forced right turns are non-sensical.

What you propose has been the system for years already. It didn't work, despite sporadic enforcement. Which is why they are finally trying something different - something they started discussing in detail around 2008 or 2009.

And it's hugely successful.

I'm really hoping we don't lose a great restaurant like Buca over this... King Street is a destination for many so if you make it more difficult to get there, you will invariably decrease the amount of people going.

But we've seen a huge increase in people on King Street - though a few less cars. It's easier to get to now than before. It's not like most people who knew downtown would drive far on King Street - it was always more economically sensible to avoid it. Always faster to take a different street, and just turn down when you need - which is even easier now, as there isn't gridlock on King Street, so much easier to make a turn onto it.

I can see how some restaurants on King Street would be feeling the burn if they relied heavily on Uber eats to compliment foot traffic.

Hang on - how are they impacted? It's not going to cut back on people ordering much (unless everyone is now jumping on a quick steetcar instead - but I doubt it). And Uber drivers of all people will know how to navigate around still - perhaps quicker, as it's now easy for them to go the 1-2 blocks on King, and jump out for 2-seconds to grab the food.

Whether or not you can drive the distance or not, we are still down to one lane.

What's changed then? The left lane was TTC and taxis only during rush hour. The right lane was parking only.

Nobody was arguing for King Street pre-pilot. You can achieve the gains minus the costs.

What do you mean? There's been a decade debate about this. At the DRL subway meeting I went to, people asked questions about what can be done until the subway opens over 10 years in the future (or more).

I call that rush hour... 3 hours out of 24... but left lane for streetcars would solve the last one

Uh ... did you actually ever drive on King Street before the pilot?

There was an article in the Star today about the success of this pilot, and Joe Cressy seemed to suggest that eventually all the streetcar lines will get a similar treatment downtown.

No surprise there, the plan always was to do both King and Queen. Presumably it was easier to just pilot one. Dundas perhaps only needs Church to McCaul. Carlton isn't that bad really (and that's the line I live on). Though improving he Parliament intersections would help. A no-left on westbound Gerrard at Parliament would help - but is perhaps selfish. I wonder if there's a way of getting a bit of extra ROW when that part of the Regent Park rebuild starts, and putting in a rather long left-hand turn lane from "Dreamer's Way" to Parliament. Demolition for the current building in that corner was planned for September 2018 (Phase 3B-2 - Block 1).

 

[nfitz]

I'm really hoping we don't lose a great restaurant like Buca over this... King Street is a destination for many so if you make it more difficult to get there, you will invariably decrease the amount of people going.

I wanted to tackle this one separately - as I'm not sure I understand the issues here. I've never been here - doesn't seem to even open until 5 pm - which seems odd, given the amount of $ the lunch crowd can drop in this city. And it's near Portland, while I work near Sherbourne and live to the east. Occasionally I might go that far west to a particular shop or something, but I always hated it, because it took forever - and then jumped on Spadina to go home after. Aren't I more likely to go there after work now, as it's easier to get to?

But hang on - looks like their main entrance is on Portland? So pick up/drop off isn't impacted (nor do I think it's much of an issue for most places really). And is parking an issue there? Back in the day, if I wanted to get to Queen West, I'd drive down Adelaide, past Spadina, and start looking for a spot - invariably ending up near Portland and Adelaide, where I could always get a spot.

What's the real issue with this location? If they are really doing the dinner crowd only, then traffic isn't really a big issue by then, and King should never be part of the driving plan between Bathurst and Jarvis.

 

[PinkLucy]

I haven’t been for a while but Buca on King is tucked away down an alley. They have a tiny little sign. You aren’t at all likely to notice it driving by. I think that is supposed to be part of its allure.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No surprise there, the plan always was to do both King and Queen

Which plan was this? I’ve never heard that before.

 

[nfitz]

I haven’t been for a while but Buca on King is tucked away down an alley. They have a tiny little sign. You aren’t at all likely to notice it driving by. I think that is supposed to be part of its allure.

Oh, so with less cars, they are afraid that people might be able to find it easier, by being able to see down the alley from the opposite side of King?

Or is this just a hypothetical concern by our recent visitor, who from his comments hasn't actually been on King Street this century.