[Northern Light]

The Ford government estimates it will cost at least $225 million (probably more) of taxpayer money to have alcohol sold in convenience stores. Enjoy that beer. You're paying for it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-beer-wine-corner-stores-cost-taxpayers-1.7215839

From the above:

I don't really have an issue, per se, w/the forgone revenue from the very modest wholesale discount. There really is no way to sell to other retailers at full retail price, that just doesn't make any sense.

My issues here are:

1) The one-time payment of 225M, the government has sufficient levers at its disposal to make life utterly miserable for the owners of Brewer's retail by way of regulations, taxes and fees, many of which it could choose to impose now; I think it was perfectly capable of getting an early release from the Master Agreement in exchange for not being an ogre.

2) The exclusivity arrangement w/the Beer Store concerning returns, for which the government is paying.

3) The cost-of-service waiver in $$ is probably necessary, but its simply a convoluted way of restructuring the price.

****

I don't think getting out of the Master Agreement ~ a year early is some great achievement, it could have waited; likewise, I don't the world would have ended with the status quo model, or only rolling out beer on a wider basis etc. But I also don't think the monopoly was ever justified, not even a century ago.

Countries around the world are more (small l) liberal about booze than parochial Ontario, and we need to admit that dragging ourselves into the 20thC never mind the 21st, is going to cost something.

It just doesn't need to cost quite this much, at least in this way. ( I will argue that the wholesale discount is actually inadequate and leaves next to no margin for retailers, and probably needs to at least double)

****

For comparison purposes, the assignee or wholesale discount of 10% leaves gross margin room of 11.1% for an Ontario retailer if you mark up to LCBO prices.

The average markup on beer in the U.S. is between 25-35% depending on the retailer/distributor.

 

[Northern Light]

New tidbit from The Star:

Source: https://www.thestar.com/business/be...cle_061d59f6-1dc9-11ef-8d33-c33507bd3aaa.html

So they are mandating at least some stores get into the recycling business.

However, the big chains are balking and whining about food safety (which is important) but when returns are already mandated in Quebec stores and when every supermarket in Ontario used to handle pop bottle returns when I was a kid. Give me a break.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm not sure how that will come as a surprise. Convenience has a price. Although they have some products that are considered lost leaders, alcohol won't be one of them.

 

[Towered]

New tidbit from The Star:

View attachment 567952

Source: https://www.thestar.com/business/be...cle_061d59f6-1dc9-11ef-8d33-c33507bd3aaa.html

So they are mandating at least some stores get into the recycling business.

However, the big chains are balking and whining about food safety (which is important) but when returns are already mandated in Quebec stores and when every supermarket in Ontario used to handle pop bottle returns when I was a kid. Give me a break.

I'm wondering how having in-store recycling poses a threat to "food safety"...

 

[evandyk]

“I’ve been in the stores in Quebec where they have to take the beer bottles and the wine bottles back, and it’s not nice, it’s not pretty,” said Sands. “People walk in with those dirty cans and bottles. We’re not like the Beer Store or the LCBO. We sell food.

I'm not sure "It's not nice. It's not pretty." is an evidence-based approach to food safety, but that's their story and they're sticking to it!

 

[PL1]

Lol. BC stores accept all beverage containers and have for years. They even automate it with return machines; they can do that here, too, if they want to.

 

[gabe]

Bottle returns and automated deposit machines in grocery stores have been around for decades in other provinces/ states and most of the modern world. But somehow only in Ontario they are a threat to food safety?

 

[Richard White]

Lol. BC stores accept all beverage containers and have for years. They even automate it with return machines; they can do that here, too, if they want to.

They do that in Europe as well. You put the bottles into a machine which then gives you a slip to redeem at the cashier.

I think the food safety concerns may be from reusing bottles. They are grasping at straws and calling it unsanitary.

 

[Jonny5]

Take back your empties and get a Lotto Max ticket! LOL

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

 

[afransen]

New tidbit from The Star:

View attachment 567952

Source: https://www.thestar.com/business/be...cle_061d59f6-1dc9-11ef-8d33-c33507bd3aaa.html

So they are mandating at least some stores get into the recycling business.

However, the big chains are balking and whining about food safety (which is important) but when returns are already mandated in Quebec stores and when every supermarket in Ontario used to handle pop bottle returns when I was a kid. Give me a break.

It's pretty onerous to expect small retail outlets <10k ft2 to process empties. It is pretty space hungry for a small store to be dedicating space to it. Is this regardless of whether they retail alcohol? This seems like a pretty strong disincentive to put in smaller retail outlets that are less car dependent. A tax on small retail...

 

[Northern Light]

It's pretty onerous to expect small retail outlets <10k ft2 to process empties. It is pretty space hungry for a small store to be dedicating space to it. Is this regardless of whether they retail alcohol? This seems like a pretty strong disincentive to put in smaller retail outlets that are less car dependent. A tax on small retail...

Every store (that sold pop) in Ontario took back pop bottles when I was a kid and gave you a deposit back.

This is when pop bottles were 750ml and glass by the way. They took them back for re-use, not recycling.

Coke bottles intact went back to the coke plant to be sterilized and then re-used. At that time, many grocery stores were no bigger than today's Rabba or 7-11; and variety stores no bigger than they are today.

Here's a story on how we lost that system in favour of the less productive and more polluting blue box:

Pop history: The soft drink story behind recycling

Longtime activist David McRobert describes how the blue box originated in the soft drink industry’s efforts to avoid mandatory refillable bottles.

www.thestar.com

Given that returns can be handled by a machine, I don't see this as all than onerous.

That said; I would prefer this system be employed only for re-use. For recycling, there's really no reason not to have people just use the blue box.

If one is simply looking to discourage litter, then have take-back machines beside waste receptacles on the sidewalk that can issue credit back to a debit card after you deposit recyclables should suffice. This tech is already in wide use today in Europe.

 

[lenaitch]

Take back your empties and get a Lotto Max ticket! LOL

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News News business news stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

This really sounds like throwing the Beer Store a bone for all the business they're going to lose.

 

[afransen]

Every store (that sold pop) in Ontario took back pop bottles when I was a kid and gave you a deposit back.

This is when pop bottles were 750ml and glass by the way. They took them back for re-use, not recycling.

Coke bottles intact went back to the coke plant to be sterilized and then re-used. At that time, many grocery stores were no bigger than today's Rabba or 7-11; and variety stores no bigger than they are today.

Here's a story on how we lost that system in favour of the less productive and more polluting blue box:

Pop history: The soft drink story behind recycling

Longtime activist David McRobert describes how the blue box originated in the soft drink industry’s efforts to avoid mandatory refillable bottles.

www.thestar.com

Given that returns can be handled by a machine, I don't see this as all than onerous.

That said; I would prefer this system be employed only for re-use. For recycling, there's really no reason not to have people just use the blue box.

If one is simply looking to discourage litter, then have take-back machines beside waste receptacles on the sidewalk that can issue credit back to a debit card after you deposit recyclables should suffice. This tech is already in wide use today in Europe.

That's not what's being contemplated, though. Returning liquor/wine bottles is a bulky, messy affair. From what I observe at TBS they smash these bottles once returned (sure sounds like it, at least!), so there is no reuse taking place.

Honestly cans are recycled: put it recycling.
Beer bottles are reused: deposit/return system
Wine/liquor bottles are recycled: put in recycling.

Having a deposit/return system for containers that are recycled seems very inefficient/wasteful.

 

[Northern Light]

Having a deposit/return system for containers that are recycled seems very inefficient/wasteful.

Agreed; but with the proviso that I think we probably can and probably should be doing more re-use.

As ever, there are tradeoffs. Returning to pop in glass bottles would mean higher prices and smaller bottle sizes.

There is an inconvenience issue there for families and/or those who find lifting heavy groceries a challenge; but there is both and environmental offset and also, arguably a health one, because more expensive, less convenient
soft drinks would probably be consumed less/in smaller portions.

Wine bottles pose a potential issue in that reuse requires some level of industry standard, and with the amount of imported product from around the world, that would likely be a challenge.

 

[lenaitch]

Wine bottles pose a potential issue in that reuse requires some level of industry standard, and with the amount of imported product from around the world, that would likely be a challenge.

Same with beer to a smaller degree. It was likely easier when everything came in 'stubbies' but once they allowed bespoke bottling it became more complex. I assume those companies pay a premium to have theirs separated out.

Wine is all over the map, even domestically. Life would easier if they just sold it in boxes or cans!